"We met and fell in love at a mental health unit"

EMMA - Hello, I'm Emma Tracey, this is Access All and coming up on this episode.

[Clip]

HANNAH - I don't think I was in any kind of mindset to think of any real relationship at that time. I think it built from a friendship. It was just this realisation that this is somebody that I could be really, really honest with. So we were inpatients for a year and then outpatients for three years and it wasn't until we were outpatients that then there was this realisation that actually I was starting to have feelings for Sean.

[End of clip]

EMMA - That was Hannah, partner to Sean, and we’ll meet both of them later to hear about their romance, which started in a mental health unit.

Beth Rose, BBC reporter is here. Hi Beth.

BETH - Hi Emma.

EMMA - Hello. Beth, I've started running again. It's something we've got in common, the old Parkrun.

BETH - We have big, big fan of Parkrun.

EMMA - But you don't actually do it though. You just go for coffee, don't you?

BETH - So it's actually a particular way of doing parkrun, which is running from my flat to parkrun to have coffee and cake with fellow Parkrunners. I think it still counts.

EMMA - How many K is it?

BETH - It's like four and half, but there's also more hills involved. I have done 68, thank you very much. I've got the red t-shirt for my 50th and I'm continuing. How about you?

EMMA - I've done eight.

BETH - I mean, come on.

EMMA - Amateur, amateur.

BETH - Tell me, it's not going to be straightforward for you, is it? Because you are blind, so how do you do it?

EMMA - I do it with a guide. It could be someone I've never met before. I might e-mail Parkrun and say I'm coming along and I need a guide. Or it could be someone from the local running group who has said that they will guide me. So it's often different people. And actually, that's one of my excuses for my incredibly slow times is that I end up chatting to them because I'm literally tethered to them.

BETH - It must be very difficult to be in sync with each other, both running legs and also arms so you don't jangle against each other. But also, I don't know what the terrain is like at your parkrun, but mine is very, there's no paving, it's like puddles and rocks and tree roots and bits of field.

EMMA - They will put themselves at the same speed as you. They're not going to go…and if they're too fast for you, won't get them to go again because you die.

BETH - If they're too fast for you, they can just drag you along.

EMMA – Like a dog.

BETH - Isn't that how it works for the tether? Yeah, they just haul you across the path.

EMMA - Yeah, they could, but then there's I would imagine there's some sort of insurance thing around that. I don't want to do a big ad for Parkrun, but it's so ubiquitous now, isn't it, that you can kind of talk about it. But they have StartLine Initiative, it's called, and they've got 100 specialist accessibility packs going to different Parkrun events.

BETH - And so in these start packs, one of the things is an official tether, which is what you were saying keeps you connected to another runner. Like what makes a good tether? What do you use?

EMMA - I use an official tether. It is brightly coloured, I believe. Fairly water repellent material. It's got two loops, one on each end and then a little bit of a lead or a little bit of material in between to keep you from being right beside each other. We forget our tethers all the time. People have used the sock off their foot as a tether. They've used a scarf, a snood. They will literally just find a way of doing it because once you've gotten up on a Saturday morning at 8am or whatever and made your way to the Parkrun and you're not going to not do it just because of a tether, you'll use anything.

BETH - Absolutely not.

EMMA - You've got that far, you're not going to just give up. What's your top tip for navigating Parkrun?

BETH - Okay, so if you're a first-time runner, the thing with parkrun is we are talking about it and we love it, we have a great time. It's actually quite difficult the first time you do it, not for the running, but you go there and there are like potentially hundreds of other people who know what they're doing, who have their little running crews and it feels a bit difficult. Everyone's chatting before they start or they're getting their watches ready to time themselves. My key top tip is at the end of your run, go and get your bag or whatever and just sort of hang around and see which groups are gathering to talk because so many people go for coffee afterwards and they are always introducing new people, welcoming new people to their table. If you're really quick, the fast runners often go home. So my tip is wait till the end, mill around a bit and sure enough someone will invite you to their coffee and cake and away you go.

THEME TUNE 

EMMA - Coming up on this episode, the couple who got their wedding photos taken at the mental health unit where they met.

The books with no words helping people with learning disabilities wrap their heads around complex issues.

And in a moment, why are so many disabled people underestimated? Well, that is the $1,000,000 question.

Please do subscribe to us on BBC Sounds or wherever you get your podcasts.

And you can contact us, tell me stuff. You can e-mail accessall@bbc.co.uk.

Do you find that people have low expectations of you as a disabled person at school or at work or just in life in general? And does that lead in turn to you having low expectations of yourself? I hard relate to this, but I did hope that younger people would feel differently. The charity Sense polled 1000 people with complex needs between the ages of 16 and 25 and their results say that it's still a problem. Two-thirds of those they surveyed said that people in the education system had low expectations of them and then that trend went right through into their adult life, putting up unnecessary barriers to the things that they wanted to do.

Now we're going to get into this with two such young people. We've got Charlie and we've got Saihan. And we're going to get into the why and what we might be able to do about it with Dr. Kirsty Lidiard.

Now Kirsty, we'll talk lots more to you later, but just to kick us off, you've done lots of work in this area. What are we getting at when we talk about high and low aspirations?

KIRSTY - Culturally we have low or lower expectations of disabled people because we live in an ableist culture. Ableism really is the idea that disabled people have lesser social value than non-disabled people and I think comes into fruition when we think about some of the assumptions we might have that disabled people are incapable, unable to contribute, helpless and so on. And we know that those things aren't true, right? But I think that when it comes into a work context, so we might think they might be off work more, off sick more. We might ask for complicated, reasonable adjustments at work, or they think we just achieve less, right? But none of those things are true. Actually research shows that disabled employees perform as well as their non-disabled peers and frequently actually exceed standards around attendance and productivities.

EMMA - Let's bust some of those myths right now, Saihan. Saihan's on the line with his mum for some support. Saihan is 22, he's from London, you're autistic, you've got mobility issues. And despite getting an honours degree last year, you have not been able to get a job so far. You're not in education, employment or training. When did you and your mum start realising that people had low, lower aspirations for you?

SAIHAN - I think that society had low expectations of me throughout my school years, especially in my primary school years. And I think once you're officially diagnosed, there often puts a stigma on myself and peers and therefore teachers and support staff don't think the best of us and it's such a big barrier. And especially when I was growing up, there was few role models who have succeeded in education.

EMMA - Okay, tell me some of the specific ways at school where people had lower expectations of you.

SAIHAN - They would often put me in like separate classes. For example, one class was called the golden group and it was full of people like myself with special educational needs and it would be one teacher teaching secondary school Maths, English and Science. So this meant that the quality of education was lower compared to our peers in the same school.

EMMA - And would you have liked to have been in the mainstream class, Saihan?

SAIHAN - Yes, I would like to be in the mainstream class a lot sooner. So I needed my mum and my family to help push the teachers to put me in the mainstream classes.

EMMA - And you went through your GCSEs and your A levels and your Degree at the same speed as your peers. And then you started looking for a job. Tell me, you've not been able to find one yet. What do you want to do?

SAIHAN - Personally, I would like a role as an advisor to government. And I think growing up, looking at and facing senses of injustice, my passion for politics began when I was in year four, so roughly eight years old. And thankfully I've pursued my political ambition since. And so I think with my knowledge, I would like to use my knowledge to better the society and make lives of disabled people a lot better than when I was growing up.

EMMA - Okay, so you've learned stuff on the ground, you've been involved in campaigns and you've got a politics degree as well, so you feel like you're well set up for that. What have you been applying for?

SAIHAN - I've been mainly applying for civil service roles. I've been told to apply for apprenticeships and for administration roles, but even then it's really difficult because I'm applying at the same time as neurotypical individuals and those that have less support needs.

EMMA - What support would you need in a job?

SAIHAN - Similar to school, like extra time and just understanding from the employer really, because if I can manage education with the right support, then definitely in the workplace I can thrive and even succeed. Because even when I was studying, a lot of my fellow peers sometimes struggled and had to ask me for help, even though they were neurotypical or they had less support needs. So in that fact, when it comes to education and work, it can even out, I can help them and they can help me and we can all thrive.

EMMA - What kind of issues have you come into when it comes to the applications and the interviews?

SAIHAN - I think the application process required a lot of help from my mum and family because the questions are so difficult. They require a concise, succinct pieces of information and it doesn't give enough room for the information that I would like to provide. And in the interview stages, I think that once I notified the employers and the relevant recruitment team about my access needs their reaction towards me definitely shifts, and I think that there could be a sense of bias because of the fact that the employer would more likely employ or recruit a person with less support needs.

EMMA - And have you been dealing with the Job Centre? And if so, how's that been for you?

SAIHAN - Yeah, I've been, I briefly dealt with them only once. It was very difficult. It's very congested and compact. They had a lack of awareness. So much so, rather than supporting me into work, they recommended to me and my mum to get a fit note from the doctor so I can get an extra top-up payment rather than actually helping me to look for work.

EMMA - Wow, so you felt like they were encouraging you to stay on benefits?

SAIHAN - Yes, which is against the trend which you've seen in media where people are definitely encouraged or much more pushed to look for work. Whereas myself, I've been trying to look for work but I haven't received the same level of support that the job centre gives to other individuals.

EMMA - What effect has that had on your confidence and your mental health? And you can bring your mum in here if that's easier for you as well.

FIRDUSH - It's a sensitive area. It has had a lot of impact on his mental health, but I rate him because he's fallen so many times, but because of that drive to prove something that he can do, he's fought with his mental health to come back up and fight and fight. As long as I can, I will support him.

EMMA - Somebody else with a lot of ambition and get up and go is Charlie. Charlie's on the line, he's 19, an aspiring journalist from Scotland. I love having people from Scotland on the podcast. He's part of the Youth Board for Whizz Kidz charity, which provides wheelchairs for young people. Hi, Charlie.

CHARLIE - Hello, how you doing?

EMMA - I'm good. You've got cerebral palsy, Charlie, and when you were born, so you were born with that disability, what kind of expectations did the doctors have for you?

CHARLIE - They told my parents I wouldn't walk, talk, or be able to function for myself, and I've proved them all wrong so they always have to give the worst case scenario because that's what their job is, but I kind of feel like maybe they should give them a few years more chance to see how they actually develop because I feel like I'm very independent for myself now.

EMMA - Let's go onto your school life and you needed a scribe so someone to write down your answers when doing tests and exams at school. Didn't you tell me that they sometimes even suggested that your scribe was helping you.

CHARLIE - Yeah, well, I've done a couple of Maths tests and I did quite well on the tests. And then they'd say, oh, I don't think you can do this, I think your scribe's done it. I'm like, well, I have done it, and I'm not going to lie am I. It was quite annoying, yeah.

EMMA - You've had a summer job. How did you get on at your garden centre job?

CHARLIE - It was OK, but then I think a lot of the time the people wouldn't trust me. I think they said it was a safeguarding issue or they said, or do you need help with everything? And they just stand over me and I'm like, I can do it, I'm perfectly fine doing it. I shouldn't be treated different than anybody else. You show me how to do it, so I don't know why I should be having to.

EMMA - How did it make you feel with someone standing over you all the time?

CHARLIE - It was quite frustrating because I felt like I couldn't actually develop and get better at the thing that I was being told.

EMMA - What do you want to be? What do you want to do? And what support do you think you're going to need to get there?

CHARLIE - Well, I'm big into my sports journalism, so I'd love to be someone in the sports industry.

EMMA - Okay, and what support do you think you'll need as a disabled person?

CHARLIE - I think it's a lot like the last caller. Sorry, I'm terrible… (EMMA – Saihan) Saihan, a lot of it was the same, the scribe, the extra time, and maybe for me bigger text with my visual processing action.

EMMA - And are you positive about your future?

CHARLIE - Yeah, I think it'll be good, but obviously you need adaptions. I've kind of, because we're going back to that lower aspirations, people have always underestimated me, almost feel like I need to prove them wrong again, even though you said you get annoyed doing that.

EMMA - See, I'm old Charlie, so I've been doing it for over 40 years now and it just does get a bit tiring in the end. I'm going to speak to Dr. Kirsty Liddiard now, the senior research fellow at the University of Sheffield and has done a lot of work around this and with young disabled people around how they want to live their lives. So you're really welcome and you've been listening to all those stories.

KIRSTY - I think you know everything Saihan and Charlie have shared today is so reminiscent of everything we've had in working with disabled people in research for over 10 years. Low expectations, the impact the emotional impact of those, the material impacts, what they mean in young people's lives is really difficult. One of the things that's really interesting that we found in our research is that disabled young people, particularly those with complex needs, often have really exceptional skills. And this goes back to the underestimation that Charlie's just spoken about. So like, you know, living in inaccessible environments, mediating barriers in everyday life means you're usually really good at problem solving, is one example. Working through social care systems, welfare systems, normally means you have really good, strong self-advocacy skills. I mean, we've worked with young people who, you know, manage entire care teams through direct payments and individual budgets. They're really brilliant managers. So I think part of the problem that we're thinking about in our work is that it's not just about low expectations, it's almost the lack of acknowledgement of the types of skills and knowledges that disabled young people do have and how these can be really beneficial and transferable to work context. I think employment contexts are really missing out.

EMMA - Why is there consistently low expectations?

KIRSTY - Yeah, it's a really good question. I think I guess I think Saihan talks about role models. Until we see disabled people in the workplace as routine, you know, again, not just in terms of having jobs, but having careers, things don't change. We almost need to see it to be it.

EMMA - What could workplaces do?

KIRSTY - Oh, I think so much. There are certain things I think we could do to change and reshape work that benefit everybody, parents, women, disabled people. So think about flexible working, think about hybrid working. You know, not assuming that all disabled people need to work from home, but for many it's a really viable way to continue in employment. I think we need more supportive and knowledgeable employers. I think we need, you know, to think about inclusive recruitment. I think Saihan talked there about. the difficulty of job interviews. If you're struggling with a job interview and that isn't made accessible to you, how is that going to follow through to the actual job or post? Again, in the research we've done with disabled young people, that moment of learning that society is the problem and you're not the problem is really powerful. And I think although that doesn't change the world, it alleviates you of the burden of you being the problem, knowing that, again, workplaces should be better, education systems should be better and so on.

EMMA – Listeners, have you experienced low expectations, low aspirations? What impact has that had on your life? What have you done about it? Has it stopped you doing something? Tell me, e-mail accessall@bbc.co.uk. Saihan, Charlie and Dr. Kirsty Liddiard, thank you so much for speaking to me on Access All.

CHARLIE - Thank you.

MUSIC

EMMA - Right, Beth, can you hear me now?

BETH - I can, loud and clear.

EMMA - And where are you?

BETH - Oh, what a palaver, Emma. I've been running around Broadcasting House on different floors trying to find a tiny little booth to talk to you because the big studios are at a premium and our time was up. So we had to scoot out of it because the Newscast team had a big important interview they wanted to do. So I've been running around trying to find this little quiet hole. I'm in a glass box essentially so people can see in but hopefully you can't hear them.

EMMA - No, I can't hear them at all actually. I'm still in my usual studio in Edinburgh but I'm glad you were able to find somewhere because we have to do our chatty bit.

BETH - We do. A whole another month has gone by. There is a lot to talk about.

EMMA - Last month the episode was taken up by an interview with Richard Osman, the author, the quiz master, the podcast host and he's got an eye condition called nystagmus and he talked quite a lot about that.

[Clip]

RICHARD - Nystagmus is your eyes are constantly moving, so your eyes, there's an inability to focus. And your brain, I'm not seeing the world constantly moving like that because my brain has worked out a way of dealing with it. But the way it deals with it is to have like a halfway house between all the different things I'm seeing, which is a blurred version of things.

[End of clip]

EMMA - But what we did was we also put a shorter version up on YouTube if you want to see myself and Richard chatting together. And people seem to be watching it and leaving comments, haven't they?

BETH – They have, there was loads of comments really enjoying the interview. And Polly VG left a message saying, how right Richard is in terms of being at school and the challenges of having an eye condition. Polly said I've only had to deal with moderate short sight and astigmatism, but I spent my entire school years avoiding the need to even try to read the blackboard, whether that was sitting at the front of the class or listening and trying to remember and making sure I didn't get asked anything at any time. I can really feel Polly's anxiety from those school days.

EMMA - I know and I would imagine that so many people were in the same position and can relate to that and also lots and lots of people with nystagmus got in touch with me to say how well he described it.

The rest of my month has been taken up with talking about one of my favorite subjects, Bethany. It's blind parenting. I just think that it is such a lesser understood thing and that so much of the ways of doing things are like workarounds that are really simple and low tech. So I got an opportunity to write about that for the website because it was a big story about how the Guide Dogs charity were producing 3D models of 20 week baby scans. So I did a little video about the models, but it kind of gave me a bit of space to talk about the tips and tricks of blind parenting. The interesting thing about the article was that I spoke to someone who had a teenager and a baby, a blind couple, and they were saying that the big difference between then and now is the technology that they have available to them and the AI and being able to take photos of things. And something that didn't make it into the article, which I loved, was that Kim, the mum, says she feels much more able to find clothes that actually suit her kid now than she did all those years ago.

BETH - Is that because she's using the AI camera and it's telling her what it looks like?

EMMA - Yes, so she has asked people in her life what colours suit him and then she goes on clothing selling sites and she puts the photos from there into the AI and they will fully describe the clothes to her and all the colours and everything. So it's made it's so much nicer for her to know that what she's buying suits him. And it feels like a really small thing, but it's a bit of independence and a bit of confidence. You know, when you go out to baby groups and stuff, as a blind mum, I was hyper aware of what people would think and how people would think about how I dressed him and stuff. So I just, I think that's a lovely new thing that she's able to do. I did include some tips and tricks and what I really love about them is that they're really low tech. So do you want to hear some?

BETH - I do want to hear them, yeah. So these are the low tech classics.

EMMA - So one is very simple, get like a plastic high chair, put them in that rather than one with all cushions and little crevices and stuff because they're harder to clean and then put a plastic or a totally waterproof mat on the floor when you're starting to feed them solid food. And then when you finish feeding them and you're tidying up, you can tell what they've eaten and what's gone on the floor. You can also pick it off the floor and give it back to them, but I wouldn't advertise that.

And then when they're a little bit older, you can attach bells to some of their clothing so that you can hear them, particularly at baby groups and things.

My other favorite one is get someone to make a physically feelable mark on a syringe so that if your kid needs a smaller amount of medicine, you're able to deliver the medication to them by pulling the inner bit of the syringe out to that mark. And it makes such a difference to your independence because if you can't give your baby, like teething medication or whatever, you're waiting on someone all the time.

BETH - They are all great tips. I thought what you were going to say with the high chair and the mat was that kind of helps with the cleaning up operation. So like after the child's finished eating you can just... wrap up the mat and tip it into the bin.

EMMA - Yes, it also helps with that.

BETH - Also with the medication, that's just useful for anyone, you know, if you're up in the middle of the night, having the tactile nature on the syringe is just helpful. I think, Emma, is this what we call the curb cut effect?

EMMA - Yes, doing something one way because you're disabled, but actually it's really helpful for everyone else. So when they invented the drop curb, as we call it in the UK, that was for wheelchair users, but it helps people with buggies or trolleys.

BETH - So you have had a busy month. The great thing about this job is we work with loads of other teams and our sister program, or one of our sister programs, is called People Fixing the World, which is essentially the best solutions around the world. And there's a great episode that's just gone out and it's all about Beyond Words books.

EMMA - What are they then?

BETH - So they're quite thick books for adults or young people and they've got no words in them. They're just pictures. And the idea is that people maybe with learning disabilities can get to grips with really complicated situations in life and read a book that is fun and interesting with characters and also understand something that is maybe quite complicated to be told. So I've got one in my hands right here called Going into Hospital and it really goes through step by step everything that might happen. So it might be when you go to A&E, you've got to go to the reception, then you might be triaged. There's even like great details where a man at the hospital who's wearing a gown and when you go to the hospital the gowns are kind of back to front so they do up at the back and there's always a gap and you're trying to make sure everything's covered. So there's even those details and the idea is that it goes through step by step and so when you might have to go to hospital yourself suddenly it's familiar and you know it. And the great thing also which I particularly like is most of the characters don't have names so you can really get stuck into the stories and come up with the characters' names. You can give them hobbies, and as well as reading a book and learning, you're kind of writing the story as well.

EMMA - And do you know what else I really love about Beyond Words is they've actually found spaces for people with learning disabilities to read these books together.

BETH - They have, so around the country they have 300 book clubs, so they get these gatherings, they all read the book together, and then they can all chat about it, what they liked, what they didn't like and also they can talk a bit more about the serious story that it was telling. So one of the people Fixing the World reporters is Natalie Duo and she has a learning disability herself and she went along to one of these book clubs in London to read the book and take part in the discussion around online extortion.

NATALIE - The story is about a woman called Amy who makes friends with a man online. We decide to call that man John. Amy and John send each other pictures of their pets.

[Clip]

UNKNOWN – Amy.

UNKNOWN - Yes.

UNKNOWN - I think she might be taking a picture of her cats as well.

UNKNOWN – Yeah.

NATALIE - But then I noticed that John sends Amy a picture of something else. John is, I think he's playing a game. Oh, taking a picture.

UNKNOWN - Taking a picture of what?

NATALIE – His foot? It's his foot.

John wants Amy to send a picture of her foot too, but our group didn't like that.

UNKNOWN - What would you do if somebody asked you to send a picture of your foot?

UNKNOWN – I would say no.

NATALIE - At this point, I'm starting to get worried about Amy, and sure enough, things get worse. John soon asks Amy to take her clothes off while on a video call.

UNKNOWN - She has to take all her clothes off.

UNKNOWN - What's happening now?

UNKNOWN - He hangs up on her.

UNKNOWN - Yeah.

UNKNOWN - And she's still in her undies.

UNKNOWN - She is, yeah.

NATALIE - And then John uses the pictures to try and get money from Amy.

UNKNOWN - If you don't, if you don't give me money, I'll show it to people.

UNKNOWN - He'll show it to other people. It's like…it's blackmail.

UNKNOWN - Blackmail, yes.

NATALIE - At first he was such a nice guy, and then Mr. Footsie turned into a monster.

At the end of the book, John is arrested by the police. Thank goodness.

UNKNOWN - And look at that.

UNKNOWN - The police came.

UNKNOWN - The police came, yes.

[End of Clip]

EMMA - I really love that piece. You can really hear all the different voices and you can hear everyone's reactions as they go through the story as well. I could imagine myself at one of those book clubs, although I wouldn't do well at one of those books, would I Beth?

BETH - Probably not, Emma.

EMMA - But it has a great origin story Beyond Words books as well because the person who invented them was a child psychiatrist and she has a son with a learning disability. But what she also said in this amazing piece was that when her husband died, so his father, he went to her study and he got the book about how to deal with a parent dying and brought it to the nurses and handed it to them and said, you know, basically to tell them what happened.

If you want to hear more of this really lovely piece, you can search for People Fixing the World on BBC Sounds.

Beth, nice to chat to you again. See you next time.

BETH - Thanks, Emma. Perfectly timed ending because the lights have gone out in this little booth.

MUSIC

EMMA - In this final section, we'll talk about mental health and touch on the subject of suicide. If that's not for you, thanks so much for listening to this episode of Access All and I'll catch you next time.

When you think of wedding photos, do you ever imagine them featuring a mental health hospital? For Hannah and Sean Cadogan, that is exactly what they wanted. They met at the Castle Hospital in London, where they were both being treated for borderline personality disorder. But it's actually not the first time we've met Hannah. In 2020, we spoke to Hannah just as she was returning to work as a nurse, following 13 years away for mental health reasons. And her first day also happened to be the day the pandemic was declared. Goodness me.

Hi to both of you.

HANNAH and SEAN – Hello.

EMMA - Hannah, let's start with you. How did the return to work go?

HANNAH - Well, I was very fortunate because I ended up returning to a hospice that were immensely caring. And from the beginning, I made the decision that I was going to be open with my colleagues, that I had a severe mental illness, that I was a nurse who had nearly died by suicide. And not only did they embrace me, but they also embraced what I was bringing from the 13 years of experience I had in the mental health system as a patient.

EMMA - And what did you feel like you brought?

HANNAH - I think it's the experience of knowing what it's like to be a patient and have your identity stripped from you and realising that we need to really understand what matters to patients, what they actually need and to step into that because I knew what that was from the other side as being a patient. And I think it just changes some of how you just communicate with patients, because you realise that what we as nurses or as healthcare professionals think is important, that might not be what's on the mind of the patient. It might be that they're worried about their dog at home.

EMMA - Okay, and how did working in this environment with people who were going to die impact your recovery and the management of your own mental health?

HANNAH - I think for me what I realised was this was the area of nursing that I'd always wanted to go into. So for me it felt I was coming back to something that I loved and I actually had the ability to be able to do it because of all the mental health treatment that I had received. For me there's something about giving people a good death with their families and so what I found was I wasn't triggered. I think that having some experiences I had as a child where I lost people, they were deaths where they died alone and I think to have the privilege of being with families and people where that doesn't happen for them or we give people a good death, I think it kind of gives me a kind of comfort if that kind of makes sense and a real privilege.

EMMA - Thinking about your own mental health, what are your challenges?

HANNAH - I basically have chronic suicidality. So like with people when you don't want to think about painful things in your life, people can turn to drink, they can turn to drugs to sort of distract from that pain. I think what happened to me was I actually became addicted to thinking about suicide. So when I get distressed now, that's where my mind will go straight away.

EMMA - My goodness, that sounds scary to me.

HANNAH - It is quite scary and I think the more that I've learned to live with it is not letting those thoughts kind of run. So in the same way as somebody who struggles with drink, you try not to let those thoughts go into plans and things like that. But what it means is then it's not doing what it used to do. So you then have to sort of sit in the pain of your pain and I think I've got better at just trying to sit with the pain and trying to find other ways to help me rather than it going to that suicidal thought. But I think it's such a strong connection in my brain. It will go there first and then I have to pull it back.

EMMA - And you've had a significant amount of mental health treatment for that and you both met while you were having that treatment.

Sean, let's turn to you. You met at the Castle Hospital in London. What sets the Castle apart from other mental health units?

SEAN - It's very much a community. So basically the patients and the nurses together largely run the hospital, they cook the food and have the meetings with other psychologists and psychiatrists coming in and together you live the life there and you discuss issues and you're challenged by the staff and the patients and it actually works very well. There are no locked doors or things like that.

EMMA - And you met Hannah there. Tell me about how you guys met.

SEAN – Well, first I think it was on a day visit because way before you go there, you go round and join the morning meeting, called the firm, as a visitor and then that gives a chance for the other people, the patients and staff to kind of see you and they talk about you afterwards. I didn't realise that at the time. And someone takes you round and that was, I actually had two visits, but one of them was Hannah and she didn't say a lot. She was very much withdrawn and she's changed a lot since then. She talks a great deal.

EMMA - Which we love, Hannah. Did you like her even then? Like how did it go into a relationship?

SEAN - Not really. I mean, I didn't dislike her. You get to know a few people and we go out to things. We went to the ballet to see Swan Lake. The lead nurse said, I'm not used to this, people going to the ballet.

EMMA - And Hannah, when did the penny drop for you?

HANNAH - Well, like Sean said, it wasn't straight away. I mean, I don't think I was in any kind of mindset to think of any real relationship at that time. I think it built from a friendship. It was just this realisation that this is somebody that I could be really, really honest with. So we were impatients for a year, and then outpatients for three years. And it wasn't until we were outpatients that then there was this realisation that actually I was starting to have feelings for Sean. And once we realised we actually told the Castle straight away because nothing is hidden at the Castle. And so we told the staff straight away that this was happening. And I think at that point I so trusted them that if they said, you know, you need to finish your treatment, before you start a relationship, I would have done that. But actually what they said was, we'll support this. That gave me a reassurance that they could see that there was something there for Sean and I. And then we did, we just started our relationship.

EMMA - And a few years on from that, now, how do you guys support each other? Because you've both got serious mental illnesses. How do you support each other through that day-to-day?

HANNAH - I think that Sean is very good at supporting me. I know that he knows the depth of my suffering and pain and he knows that I live with chronic suicidality and he kind of sits with me with that. I think with Sean I'm very conscious sometimes not to put too much pressure on Sean because that can cause difficulties for him, certainly with his epilepsy. So I share myself around a bit. I've got other friends that I go to so I don't put too much on him.

SEAN - I think for myself I'm much more closed off in some ways than Hannah. I think that helps me discuss things for myself. We've almost like learned a muscle memory from the Castle of discussing things, and that the openness is the best way. What I would say is that sometimes you can sort of, I will say like, right, that's enough. I've had enough. You know, there is like you can only take so much at once, but Hannah will find, will think that I'm not shutting her off for good as it were.

EMMA - Yeah, she knows you just can't take any more in that moment.

HANNAH - Yeah, and it helps me actually because it helps me realise that I need to, and we can do something else together, like watch the sewing bee which Sean always is very kind in letting me watch.

EMMA - Is it more of a strain on a relationship when you both are managing mental health issues?

HANNAH - I think there's a level of understanding though and I think because of what we went through at the Castle and that learning of just being really open with each other, I just so value the depth of understanding that Sean has of me because he met me at my most broken and was willing to marry me. So I feel like there's such a level of understanding that Sean has and I think in that openness and honesty I think we manage it really well actually in terms of being able to support each other and know we can't fix each other.

EMMA - And why did you decide to get your wedding photos done at the Castle?

SEAN - Well it's a special place. We have our collective experience there but also it's the thoughts of the others who are there, the time, the staff, the whole ethos of the place, which is about helping you get better, not making you better.

HANNAH - And I think in some ways it was just this thanks of what they had given us. The wedding photos there say, this is what you've done for us. You have given us a life. Because when I arrived at the Castle Hospital, I was told by one of the senior nurses that I was one of the riskiest patients in the Trust, that NHS Trust, to myself. And for them to have done what they managed to do was incredible. And I always compare it to somebody say having stage four cancer, I was that unwell and the fact that they managed to help any of us is incredible. And that often doesn't get talked about. And I think for me, I wanted just to just for them to know the difference that they had made in our lives.

EMMA - And it is an NHS unit, isn't it?

HANNAH – It is, sadly it's now the only NHS therapeutic community that exists.

EMMA - Hannah, with your background and also being a nurse, you have a job with the Royal College of Nursing. Tell me what that job is.

HANNAH - So yeah, I do have a job at the Royal College of Nursing, which is lead nurse for lived experience. And one of the things that I have been working on is actually a play for nurses around the mental health for nurses. It's called Blue. It was written by an award-winning playwright called Brian Daniels who spoke to about 30 plus nurses and it covers suicidality. It also covers vicarious trauma which is where you hear about other people's trauma. And that's what happened to me. I heard about other people's trauma and then it unearthed my own trauma, which is why I became unwell.

EMMA - Wow, this seems like a difficult subject to write a play about.

HANNAH - It is, it is. And Brian has done an incredible job of writing it to be able to open up those difficult conversations. And I think that's what I really wanted because when I was ill and was sectioned under the Mental Health Act in 2007, nobody was talking about this. I was a nurse that literally sat in a mental health hospital feeling I was completely alone, feeling isolated, that I was a failure as a nurse, feeling an immense amount of shame. And the reason that I desperately wanted something like this to bring us together to talk about it is because I just don't want another nurse to go through that.

EMMA - And the play involves the audience too.

HANNAH - Yes, it does. So we've got the play for like 45 minutes, people watch it and then we have a reflection session afterwards so people can really think about how they've identified with the play, thinking about feelings. So we can really have those conversations.

EMMA - Okay. And Hannah, you have even more strings to your bow or threads maybe instead. You've got a huge interest in embroidery and even took part in the sewing of Princess Catherine's wedding dress, which is extraordinary, wedding gown, I should say. That's what it says here, gown, not dress. When's a gown a dress, and a dress a gown? I don't know. Anyway, you've been using that talent to help create a quilt for the 100 year anniversary of the Castle. I'm blind and this is audio, a podcast anyway, so I'm going to need you to describe the quilt to me. You've got it there in front of you.

HANNAH - I have. So the quilt I actually started during COVID and I made the background of the quilt. And if anybody's a quilter out there, it's a cathedral window quilt, which means you create the whole of the background first. And then what happens is that you're able to start putting in diamonds into the quilt. And normally that's just a plain fabric. But the way that this has happened for the quilt is that patients, carers and staff, past and present of the Castle Hospital could do whatever they wanted on their diamond. And that's then being put into the quilt. And we have some beautiful ones. One of the ones I love is that "broken crayons still colour". We have another one here. "We're all different. There's something kind of fantastic about that". When the diamonds went in, actually, we borrowed a frame from the Royal School of Needlework, which is where I trained, which was very kind of them. And I've literally had it for five years. This has been an absolute labour of love. And I now need to give it back to them now that the quilt is finished.

EMMA - Sean, what images can you see on the quilt that kind of speak to you?

SEAN - Well, there's one where someone's written a letter to the Castle as well. And then they've put it inside and stitched it underneath so that it's in there in the diamond.

EMMA - Right. Are there pictures as well?

SEAN - Yes, lots of photographs. Like there was a period where they didn't have a group therapist. So they've got an inflatable…

HANNAH - That was during COVID.

SEAN - Yeah.

EMMA - And did you help at all with the quilt, Sean?

SEAN - I did one myself, I wrote a little poem.

EMMA - Do you want to tell me what the bit is?

SEAN - Okay, I shall read it for you.

A special place, a community, a paradise of musing, made so by real patients and nurses, a living institution, by work and relationships, not pills and a diagnosis. In the end though, is a new honest foundation to help face the struggles and melancholy, as we try to navigate the siren calls the lethal rocks that lie shallow beneath the surface of our minds.

EMMA - Wow, that's gorgeous. Thank you for sharing that with me. And Hannah, the quilt's going to go on display, you've just found out.

HANNAH - I have just found out. So the Museum of Mind at the Bethlem Hospital next year planned to put it up for March. So that is really exciting.

EMMA - Well, Hannah and Sean, it's been a real pleasure and an education talking to you both. And thank you so much for coming in and telling me your gorgeous story. And I hope you have a beautiful, bright future ahead.

HANNAH and SEAN - Thank you very much.

EMMA - That is almost it for this one, but before myself and Beth run off into the sunset tethered to each other, of course, always, Adi's been in touch and Adi found us through the KT Tunstall interview we had on a few months ago and loves the podcast. Thank you so much Adi. Adi will be travelling from Australia to Germany for the first time soon, and becoming blind, Adi didn't think the travel was on the cards, so this is something to be celebrated. Good stuff, Adi.

You can search for that KT Tunstall interview and hundreds of other episodes of our disability and mental health podcast Access All on BBC Sounds. And while you're there, so that you don't miss anything else, please do subscribe to us. You can e-mail me about anything at all, accessall@bbc.co.uk.

Catch you next time. Bye.