............................................................................... ON THE RECORD RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION: BBC-1 DATE: 7.11.93 ............................................................................... JOHN HUMPHRYS: Good afternoon and welcome to On The Record. Are we at an historic crossroads in the long struggle over Northern Ireland? I'll be talking to Albert Reynolds, the Irish Prime Minister. On Thursday, John Hume told the Prime Minister that his talks with Gerry Adams had revealed the greatest opportunity for peace in Northern Ireland for twenty years. He said afterwards they could bring peace within a week. But both John Major and, perhaps more suprisingly, the Irish Prime Minister, Albert Reynolds, damned him with faint praise and say they have embarked on their own odyssey. What are they up to? Martha Kearney has been to Ireland to find out. ***** HUMPHRYS: Martha Kearney reporting. Well yesterday I went to Dublin to interview Albert Reynolds as he prepared to address that Fianna Fail conference. By the way, when he talks about Articles Two and Three of the Irish Constitution, he is referring of course to the contentious claim that the Republic has rights to the territory of the six counties of Northern Ireland. But I began by asking him if the Hume/Adams process was indeed dead. TAOISEACH ALBERT REYNOLDS: John Hume has been most of his life working for peace, working for constitutional politics, he has advanced some principles on which a future formula for peace could be built upon. He knows, and he has said so, that it is now a matter for two governments to take up the initiative, see can we put a formula for peace together. That's precisely what the British Prime Minister, John Major, and myself have indicated quite clearly in our joint communique from Brussels last Friday night. Both of us are working towards that end. HUMPHRYS: So, at the moment, as we speak, it no longer exists. It has done its work. REYNOLDS: It has done its work in that it has created an environment for peace in the North of Ireland, a peace that everybody wants, a peace that everybody yearns for. Both communities, all the messages I get from both communities - and I get quite a lot - are saying the one thing, just a single word: peace. Peace is what's required. We can't wait for the political process to try and solve all the problems that are there to be solved. But the one thing that we do want - and we want it now - is peace. HUMPHRYS: And you're quite clear that any initiative has to be undertaken only by the two Governments - by yourself and Mr Major? REYNOLDS: That's the position. And, I think, the logic of the position dictates that that's the way it has to be. If you were to come forward with the initiative we would listen to you, we would hear what you had to say. As, indeed, we have heard from many others and I have been taking soundings for quite some time, way back. This is not a new development as far as John Major and myself are concerned. As far back as the first night we sat down together, after I was elected Taoiseach, we then decided between ourselves that if there was one thing we would try to do - while we were still Prime Ministers - and that would be to try and find a formula for peace. We've
been talking about it, we have been tossing forward back ideas between ourselves. And, indeed, the upsurge of violence now demands that both of us must try and bring it to finality. And, that's what I believe we intend to do. HUMPHRYS: But John Hume said that if you and Mr Major acted upon his initiative there could be peace within a week. REYNOLDS: Well, I'd like to think there could be peace in Ireland within a week. It's a more complex problem, in my view, than that. HUMPHRYS: So John Hume is wrong. REYNOLDS: I'm not saying-I'm not saying. People can take lines out of-out of speeches that anyone's making, take lines out of any interviews that-that one-people make either. HUMPHRYS: But he was quite sincere about that. REYNOLDS: Well, that's the point I'm going to say. There is no person in the North of Ireland more sincere about trying to get peace than John Hume. It's been- I have no doubt about that and he is the leader of a Nationalist, the best leader they've had. They would tell you themselves, for the past twenty five years. He's been working for peace. He's
been working for constitutional politics. He has always said that you must understand the fears and suspicions of the other community. So, he's a proper rounded balanced peace seeker, and nobody should ever doubt his credentials in that regard. HUMPHRYS: But is he right? REYNOLDS: What he is saying-I-I-I can't say what's in John Hume's mind, when he says something like that. I'd like to know exactly what 'tis based on and only then could I give you an honest answer. HUMPRHYS: But you have talked to him. You've been briefed on what he has to say and-and the- the content of his talks with Gerry Adams. REYNOLDS: The contents. I have spoken to him. He has given both the Tanaiste and myself a report of his talks. We evaluated that, we see it as-as a- pointing the finger at principles that can form part of a peace formula. There are other parts that have to be inputted into it, as well. And, that's why he says, quite clearly, that it is a matter for the two governments to take up the initiative and run with it. In other words, as Seamus Mallon said the other night, for the two Prime Ministers and the two governments to now run with the ball. We have to make our own evaluation, we have to make our own assessment of the situation and we have to come forward with what we believe would command support across both communities. HUMPHRYS: So, at the very least, when he says peace within a week is possible, he is being a little simplistic. REYNOLDS: I think, it's being simplistic. I don't- I'm not aware of a basis that would bring peace within a week. I'd like to think it was true and if it is true I-I'm sure we'll hear more from John Hume on it. HUMPHRYS: You are more optimistic now than you have been in the past, is that fair to say? REYNOLDS: Well, I've been looking for peace for quite some time. I mean, anybody who has read my speeches, from the first day I was elected as leader of Fianna Fail and, indeed, as Taoiseach of the country, I think, I have put this word right up there all the time. I'll put it up there in lights. I want people to concentrate on it, I want people to focus on it. I believe now that an atmosphere has been created over a period of time where both communities are now yearning for peace. Both communities are saying: Look, can we not produce a formula and, so, one way or another they can produce peace. Those are the messages I'm getting. I have people from the North of Ireland coming to see me every week. I don't advertise the fact. I see people in confidence, because that's the way you have to handle that-that problem that's there. By saying too much, by trying to say you are meeting this person or that person can put that person in a wrong position. A lot of work, hard work, has been put in behind the scenes. And, keep the confidence of people, keep the confidentiality of certain things that you're told, and my overall assessment is that there is an opportunity for peace and it's now up to the two governments to grasp it. It'll take courage, it'll take a lot of conviction, but I now believe we now have a chance - the best chance we have had for a long, long time - and it's up to to us to grasp it. HUMPHRYS: And, is that belief based at least partly on an impression, or more than that, perhaps, that the IRA is now ready, indeed, anxious, to stop the war, to stop the violence? REYNOLDS: Well, they're saying this morning that, you know, if they could be sure that the other people had stopped the violence they would stop. And, when you go to the other side, they're saying much the same thing. I think that- HUMPRHYS: But that we've heard for a long time, that sort of talk. REYNOLDS: You've had that for a long time but you've never had the upsurge of support for peace from both sides of the-of the divide up in the the North of Ireland as you have now. And, I'm sure, if you've been over there, you would know exactly what I'm saying. I've been saying that over the last three to four months, people are now beginning to talk openly about it. They want to see that opportunity grasped. The-the-the mood is there and I believe the mood has been there and been building for some time. I know that there are political leaders up there that maybe would not admit that or, maybe, wouldn't say it's there but I know it's there. I know. I go up to the North of Ireland. I know, I've plenty of friends in the North of Ireland from all sides. They come down here, I see them, I talk to them, they write to me, they 'phone me up. I know exactly the way the mood is building. I was in Derry, not that long ago, and I talked to people from both sides of the divide. So, my assessment - and it's my assessment I'm talking about - is that there is an opportunity there that should be grasped. HUMPHRYS: But if you'd gone to Derry yesterday, if you went to Derry this morning, you might find, on the part of the Nationalists, a great mood of anger, that they see John Hume as having been in some way betrayed, in what he set out to do. REYNOLDS: Well, I wouldn't like anybody to think that anybody would betrayed-would betray John Hume because he's the last man in the world I would betray - no way would I do that. The people of Derry know John Hume for twenty-five years. I know him all my lifetime as well. I wouldn't like to think anybody would think that he'd be betrayed. But, what you are hearing, coming through from them, is a strong belief and a conviction that the mood is there for peace and they think, possibly, that others maybe are not seeing us with the same urgency as John Hume is seeing. HUMPHRYS: Exactly. They say: Why didn't you seize on what John Hume was doing with Gerry Adams? Why didn't you welcome it openly and say we will now act on that? REYNOLDS: Governments have to do things in their own way. If you-If you're not in government, you don't have the responsibility that governments have to take on. And, it's very easy for some people outside and 'hurlers on the ditches', as we call them in Ireland, to tell you what you should do, when you should do it and how you should do it. But, we have our own responsibilities as government. We will do that but anybody who thinks that we're ignoring the possibility and the opportunity that's there for peace would be very foolish indeed. That is not the view of John Major, in my opinion, and it's not- certainly not my view. HUMPHRYS: Would it have been better if whatever John Hume was doing with Gerry Adams had continued but with that- without it being made public, as early as it was? REYNOLDS: Well, it's not for me to say who John Hume should talk to, when he should talk to them or how he should talk to them. John Hume is the leader of the SDLP. He is a leader of a political Party in his own right. I wouldn't tell him what to do and I would not expect him to tell me what to do. HUMPHRYS: What do you now believe it would take, in political terms, for the IRA to say: yes, that is a significant move forward? REYNOLDS: Well, I think the worst thing I could do would be to try and use the media or the airwaves or the television screens, for to try and do negotiations with anybody, or to lay down what people might believe would be the conditions under which this might stop or that might stop. That type of work is best done in confidence. It's best done behind the scenes because you're always- in that type of negotiation, you're always thinking if you're talking to people, as to how you would negotiate. You can't do that over television screens. You have to make judgements, you have to listen, you have to move things. It's a long, painful process. And, to try and solve it over the airways - although I'd like to think and John would love to know that the BBC could do it on the airways - I'm sorry, that's not the way it's going to happen. HUMPHRYS: But is it essential, at the very least,
to involve Sinn Fein in this process, at this stage? REYNOLDS: I have said, quite deliberately, and straightforwardly, that a cessation of violence would provide a seat at the
conference table for Sinn Fein. That has been accepted as the position of successive Irish Governments. Martin Smith of the Official Unionist Party endorsed that same principle. I think, that principle is accepted; that if you want to get rid of the violence, then, you have to direct your attention and your ideas and your proposals to those that are carrying out the violence. HUMPHRYS: And does there have to be any sort of quarantine period? Does it have to be - let us say - five years, perhaps? REYNOLDS: Well, I heard- I heard Mr Molyneaux say five years. You know, I don't think we would fall out about the time. But, I think, five years is a bit unrealistic. HUMPHRYS: Two years? REYNOLDS: Well, I'm not in the business of laying down what it should or shouldn't be. This is the problem with talks. It doesn't matter whether you're having talks with political Parties, or whether you're having talks with trade unionists, the worst thing ever you did is lay down preconditions. If you want to get a solution at the end of the day, nobody should box themselves into corners and I'm not going to do it on your programme today. HUMPHRYS: But you're saying, quite clearly, that if violence stops, then, Sinn Fein can come to the negotiating table today. But I ask- I put it like that because Douglas Hurd restated what the British Government's position has consistently been and that is that once you reach - if you can reach - a political agreement between the Constitutional Parties then violence will die because there will no longer be any support for it. REYNOLDS: Well, first of all, if you don't get the people that are carrying out the violence to cease violence, then, I don't believe political talks are going to bring the end to violence. I state my position, what I believe is the best position, and that is that we try and get a cessation of violence, that after a period when we're convinced that a cessation of violence has occurred, in a real manner, then, there is a place at the table for Sinn Fein. Those are the kind of circumstances in which I see.
That's the rotation of events, as I see them and, I think, that's the rotation of events that'll bring the results at the end of the day - not the other way around. HUMPHRYS: Rather than trying to persuade the Constitutional Parties to have another go? REYNOLDS: The Constitutional Parties can sit down at the table any day and keep going. But, if the violence continues in that community and certainly at anything like the level we have seen over the last two weeks, it's unreal to think that political talks can succeed. Because, first of all, we have to remove the violence and try and get the people and the suspicions and the fears and everything else. If we don't assuage those and if we have violence looking in over the negotiators' shoulders, I don't think you'll get peace that way. HUMPHRYS: So, what that is saying, quite clearly,
is that there has to be - to put it very crudely - a deal with the IRA. REYNOLDS: I'm not saying that. I'm not- I mean- I know what you're trying to do - put words in my mouth. But, fair enough, what I'm saying is that we have to try and put a set of proposals together, that in our view - in the two Prime Ministers' view - can command support across the communities, in the first place and that the men of violence will see that the road forward is better in that way than the way they have been at it for twenty-five years without results. HUMPHRYS: Do you want a united Ireland? REYNOLDS: I want peace in Ireland. Peace without a pre-determined future. That's my position. It's as clear as day. Peace first and, afterwards - for whatever period it takes - to get all the Parties around the table and let them work out, by agreement among themselves, as to how they want to live on this island of Ireland, how they can work out the structures and agree upon them. The way forward for a better living for all the people. And that comes first, in my honest opinion, and the politics come second. HUMPHRYS: And, if the price of that peace is dropping Articles Two and Three from the Irish Constitution, so be it? REYNOLDS: I have made it quite clear, on a number of occasions, and I repeat it here and now, that Articles Two and Three of the Constitution or any Constitutional change can be part of - while everything is on the table. And, in the event of an agreement on the future of this island then, we, as an Irish Government, would ask the Irish people if they want to change Articles Two and Three in those circumstances. It is a referendum of the Irish people that will change Articles Two and Three, not any Government, not me, or anybody else. HUMPHRYS: I asked the question, though, because, as you are far more well aware than I am, there are many, many people in the Republic of Ireland who say we have our country now, we don't actually need the Six Counties - we don't want the six counties. REYNOLDS: Well, to them I have to say that, in my opinion, that the violence and the division in the North of Ireland is holding back the fuller development of the island of Ireland in many, many ways. First of all, say, for instance, in Tourism. What do we hear and what do we see around the screens of the world for the last two weeks? Is that going to encourage people to come to Ireland on holidays, North or South? Investment -
which both of us need - is that kind of picture out there going to get us investment that we need? On the island alone, if we were to have peace and stability on the island, the North of Ireland domestic market will go up by a hundred per cent. The South of Ireland market - domestic market - would go up by fifty per cent. We could have a sharing of the overheads as to how to run the country and save us all money. How much money are we paying, as Irish taxpayers, to try and sustain the security position that we have? We're actually paying four times more than the British taxpayer's paying. And, I know the British taxpayer is a bit fed up with paying somewhere three and a half to four billion, too, for the type of situation that's there. The full development and future development and the economic future of this island is linked, in my opinion, to the problems and the violence that's up there. Take out that and you will be surprised how it can transform, first of all, the atmosphere. Time will give the people the opportunity to heal the wounds that has been inflicted - very deep wounds - to try and assuage the fears and suspicions of the Unionist community and, indeed, of the Nationalist community. And, if they can sit down and work out a future, a better future for themselves and this island, then, as I say, the Irish Government will respond in whatever way the people want to respond, because at the end of the day, it's the people's decision not a Government decision. HUMPHRYS: Would I be wrong in taking that as a very clear message to Jim Molyneaux and his Ulster Unionists? REYNOLDS: You most certainly would be right in taking a message - a clear, unequivocal message, that in the event of all the Parties and the groups sitting down and working out their own future, as to how they want to live on this island, then, the Irish Government will ask the Irish people to pass their judgement on that situation. In other words, in the event of an agreement being reached, that a referendum can be held, both in North and South, but separately - separately North and South - to give our people the opportunity of saying 'yes' or 'no'. The calls that have come, time and time again, for a unilateral change in Articles Two and Three, in relation to the talks, before the talks take place, is not feasible. It's not logical. It would not succeed and what would it do if it was beaten? It would strengthen the- the position of the provisional IRA, as being the only people who would then be seen to be carrying the nationalist flag. We are not going to allow that in this country. HUMPHRYS: So, it's quite clear what you're saying to the Unionists, as part of a potential agreement. It's less clear, perhaps, what you're saying to the IRA. REYNOLDS: No. I'm saying to them: Twenty-five years, twenty-five years of violence. Three- Well over three thousand deaths, nearly forty thousand people injured and we're not any further down the road to a solution. Violence, as a way forward, has to be rejected. They must see it. Everyone else sees it. The people on the street are saying it. Children are saying it. Everybody is saying it, and I hope that that message is getting through, that the mood is there. There is a better way. And what I'm saying to them is: Turn away from violence and turn back to Constitutional politics. Do that and you have a place at the table to argue your viewpoint, as to what kind of a future the people of Ireland want to have. HUMPHRYS: So, you've a message for the Unionists, a message for the IRA. What about a message for the British Government? Do you now want to see Mr Major leaning, perhaps, a little more heavily on Mr Molyneaux and the Unionists? REYNOLDS: What I would like to see Mr Major do first is to come with me and join with me in exploiting the opportunity for peace that I believe is there. Let's together find the framework that is acceptable to try and get a cessation of violence. If he believes that, as I believe it, then, I think we will have taken the first step to bringing peace to Ireland in this century. HUMPHRYS: Can I- REYNOLDS: I believe it's there and I want to see him take the courage and the conviction in his hands, because we have a moment in history to do it and it may not be there for a long, long time again. HUMPHRYS: One final thought. Can I ask you to look ahead ten years and tell me what sort of Ireland you see in ten years from now? REYNOLDS: I'll see a different Ireland. I'll see peace in Ireland. I see an Ireland where North and South will work together. HUMPHRYS: But there will still be a North and a South? REYNOLDS: Pardon. HUMPHRYS: There will still be a North and a South? REYNOLDS: If it takes ten years. If it takes ten years to get rid of the suspicions and the fears. And, it'll - if it takes that period of time for people to say: "This is a better way". If it takes that long, that's better than the loss of a single life. That has to be better. What I say is, the people of the North of Ireland on both sides have a huge contribution to make to the fuller development of this island. I believe they're at the stage and they're at the crossroads when they're beginning to see and look out ahead, as I'm looking out ahead, to see there is a better way than the way they have done it for the last twenty-five years. And both communities have resilience that you or I get it very difficult, I'm sure, to understand, that having gone through twenty-five years, that they're still able - as the Protestant man in the Shankill was able to do - to put his arms around the mother of the bomber and send her home in a taxi. That's the kind of people we're talking about up there. That's the type of people. When you see on the screen or in the papers, you know, a young child holding his baby sister and the father and mother gone, then, whatever period of time it takes, and whatever effort it takes, and whatever vision and conviction and leadership that it takes from John Major and myself, I believe, there's an onus and responsibility in us to lead in this situation. We have an opportunity. Let's maximise it - history will never forgive us if we don't. HUMPHRYS: The Irish Prime Minister, Albert Reynolds, talking to me yesterday. ....oooOooo....