............................................................................... ON THE RECORD RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION: BBC-1 DATE: 12.12.93 ............................................................................... JOHN HUMPHRYS: Good afternoon. As the politicians were setting off home from Brussels yesterday, leaving their civil servants to find the language for a peace agreement in Northern Ireland, the gunmen were setting off on yet another murderous mission. Two more deaths. How many more before that agreement becomes a reality? As the talks between the British and Irish Governments enter their final stages I'll be asking the Irish Prime Minister about the obstacles that still remain. ************ But first, Ireland. By the end of this week we should know whether the British and Irish governments have found the key which - to use John Hume's words - will unlock the door to peace in Northern Ireland. By the time Mr. Major and Mr. Reynolds left Brussels yesterday afternoon it had become clear that real differences still remain between them. And Mr. Reynolds was insisting that he wouldn't be prepared to put his signature to anything for the sake of an agreement. I spoke to him in Brussels just before he left for Dublin and asked him what was the least he would accept. ALBERT REYNOLDS: A joint statement that I believe will command the support of both communities in Northern Ireland and indeed would hopefully, draw the attention of the two sides that are engaged in the paramilitary violence and that, hopefully, they might see their way to cease violence and turn back to the political process. HUMPHRYS: So if it was ending up as a fairly bland document, you'd be unhappy about that? REYNOLDS: I would be unhappy because I think what the objective of the exercise and I think John Major would be equally unhappy - I think, the objective of the exercise - for both of us - is to try and produce a statement that will have enough in it to..not to prejudice the future of anybody. Not to predetermine the future of either community. But, at the same time, would point the direction in which the two governments would like to see the affairs of Northern Ireland taking the future. That we would have a new beginning and that the starting point for that new beginning would be a permanent cessation of violence. In other words, peace. That's the objective of both Prime Ministers and I don't think any of us want to end up with just a bland statement that won't..that hasn't a reasonable chance of success to attain the objectives that I have set out for it. HUMPHRYS: So, if it were to be little more than a restatement of known positions - it may be finessed a little bit - you wouldn't sign that? REYNOLDS: Well, it's not a question of what I will, or not will sign here, on a television programme. It's a question of how far both of us and both the Governments can come down the line to create a situation in which we hope that the paramilitaries would respond to, on the one hand. And, that the two communities would give strong support to, because at the end of the day we're dealing with people here. It's not just what John Major would like to have in the statement, or what I would like to have in the statement. It's basically the objective is: how can we direct a message up there that would be listened to and that will point a new direction for Northern Ireland for the two communities in Northern Ireland, while, at the same time doesn't threaten their futures or indeed predetermine their futures. In other words, taking account of the fears and the suspicions that have been expressed over..over some time now that we might be engaged in some underhand deal, or under the counter arrangement, or something - no. What we want to do is do it out in the open. Everybody can see where we want the communities in Northern Ireland to go, in the future and to provide the environment in which they can sit down and discuss their future and agree their future and that both governments then will support that new arrangement, whatever they may agree. HUMPHRYS: Because you are under a good deal of pressure to reach some sort of agreement, aren't you? If you fail... REYNOLDS: What I've said on a number of occasions, that I would much prefer to have tried and failed than not to have tried at all. I think, it's an honourable thing to try. It's an honourable thing to look at a very complex situation that has for hundreds of years marred the relationships between the peoples of..of Great Britain and Ireland and it's not going to be simple and it's not going to be a quick fix. But I mean in regards to failure, in that regard, I mean I have tried and I'm going to continue to try and I don't contemplate failure because, I think, there's such a strong mood for peace, in both communities. And, such strong support throughout the length and breadth of Ireland and indeed with the people of Britain that I believe there is an opportunity there, now, to try and test it, to explore it, to grasp it and hopefully, that we can get the proper response that will see the end of violence. HUMPHRYS: But, there is still this enormously complex and difficult circle to square, isn't there? Satisfying Nationalist aspirations without terrifying the Unionists, to the extent that we see greater violence even than there has been. REYNOLDS: Well, I wouldn't expect to be greater violence. I mean, we have had a very bad bout of violence about four or five weeks ago. Thankfully, we have had a de-escalation since. But, what we want to see is a document that doesn't threaten either, doesn't threaten either side, doesn't threaten their future. And, that when it's on the table, they will see it in that light. We don't aim in this document to settle all the problems in Northern Ireland. What we aim to do is try and get a cessation of violence and create the environment for the people and the leaders of the communities on all sides to sit around the table and see what they can agree on. In the happy knowledge that both governments will accept and support whatever the people agree on. So, it is not a question of trying to threaten one, or take one over, or coerce one group into the other. I think, what has to be accepted is that any system for the future has to command the support and allegiance of both communities. That we can't have one dominating the other, or seeking to dominate the other. I think, everybody has seen the futility of the last twenty-five years and they want a new direction and a new way forward. HUMPHRYS: Would it be helpful if Mr Major brought a little more pressure to bear on the Unionist community, if he were to be a little less neutral, perhaps? REYNOLDS: I'm not going to dictate to Mr....
how he should handle this situation. I think, both of us understand quite clearly and have a very good personal understanding of the objective that we are trying to achieve. I think, what we want to do is get the talks process going, eventually that can go into the complexity of the problems. But that, at this stage, what we want to do is to create a cessation of violence, that peace takes over and then a different environment for agreement will follow that and that's going to take some time. I don't anticipate that we're going to find an easy solution to the complex problems that are there. But I think people themselves, in an atmosphere of peace and a permanent cessation of violence will go a long way to a deal...signal a new way forward for themselves. HUMPHRYS: You, yourselves - obviously - could push that process forward, as far as the Unionists were concerned, if you were to say, at this stage, we renounce Articles Two and Three of the Constitution. REYNOLDS: That wouldn't solve the problem and I think if we're looking or listening to Unionist speakers in recent times, they accept my position as an open and honest position where I have said that in the event of an overall settlement the Irish Government will ask the Irish people to consider a change in the constitution in relation to whatever agreement or whatever the appropriate changes are. I think everybody accepts that that's my position, it's an open position, it's an honest position and many Unionist people have said it to me and indeed, some of the political leaders have said it as well. HUMPHRYS: When one listens to you now Taoiseach, it's difficult to see how the situation has changed, if I'd spoken to you a month ago - indeed, I did speak to you a month ago - if I'd spoken to you six months ago, you'd have been saying very much the same. It's difficult to see where either you or the British government is shifting towards so that you can meet in the middle. REYNOLDS: Well I think that you know this is what negotiation is all about. This is what, you know, two governments that understand exactly what objectives they're trying to achieve and are headed in the same direction, that indeed, understand the sensitivities of it and the fears and suspicions of both communities in relation to this, that's understandable. But we can't tell you, unfortunately, everything that we're saying to each other or agreeing with each other. I think that when the process of negotiation is finished and when hopefully the statement that will be published at the end of it, hopefully that will command support, I think then everybody will see where we're trying to get to. HUMPHRYS: I know you can't tell me the problems with that particular statement but perhaps you can just help a little more with the kind of statement it is, what it actually sets out to do, ultimately to end the violence, of course. REYNOLDS: Well it's going to point in a new direction and you know hopefully the people will see it the same way as the two governments see it and I think it is important that the two governments set out very clearly in a joint statement how they do see the future and where they want people to sit down and work out their future. Future by agreement not by coercion, not by violence. In other words, that there can be no change in the standards in Northern Ireland without the consent of a majority there. That's written in there, I mean this is accepted and it's accepted that the Nationalists have an identity and the Unionists have an identity. They both have different cultures, they have different traditions and it's a complex area to try and work out and it'll take some time in talks between all the communities, hopefully in a peaceful environment but those complexities have to put down at the table, because a system that doesn't command support of a very significant minority in any country. If you have a system that doesn't command the support of a very significant minority in any country, it won't work and it's as simple as that. It hasn't worked in the past, we want to try and look at it for the future and provide the people of Northern Ireland with a chance to live a better way of life for themselves for the next twenty five years. HUMPHRYS: The implication of that is that Britain must acknowledge the value of a united Ireland ultimately. REYNOLDS: Well I know that that phrase has been used in a document that was leaked to an Irish newspaper. Those issues are issues for the talks process, they're not issues to be addressed in this peace initiative that we're talking about. Those are issues... all complexities about institutional frameworks and all that for the future as to who does what, where, all of that are for the talks process. We're trying to keep those issues away from the peace initiative so they'll be no complexities, keep it simple but I do know that those type of issues raise fears in different people's minds, they have different views on them. We're not getting involved in that at this stage, we want first of all to try and get peace. HUMPHRYS: So you quite clearly separate the talks process from the peace process and you have Mr Major's support in that approach? REYNOLDS: Very clearly we..I have..we're both agreed on where we're actually going. We're first of all trying for a peace initiative but at the same time Sir Patrick Mayhew and his ministers indeed are also trying, in bilateral talks with the political leaders in Northern Ireland to try and move them towards a common, a certain amount of common agreement, enough to take them back to the conference table. When they're satisfied they have achieved that the talks process will reconvene. HUMPHRYS: So the British Government has moved in your direction to that extent at any rate? REYNOLDS: Yes. That we're dealing with the peace initiative separately, we're dealing with the talks initiative hopefully as soon as we're ready to start them. They're not in competition with each other, those two processes, they're complimentary to each other. If we succeeded in getting a permanent cessation of violence undoubtedly the talks process would have a much better chance of success. HUMPHRYS: If you fail, is there not the danger that the reaction of the IRA - the men of violence - will be "it has all been tried now, all we can do is go back to the bomb and the gun." REYNOLDS: Well I would hope not because we have...we've had a generation of it now. The next generation will be looking and questioning the whole validity I would say, or the whole movement, as to where they should go in the future. I think they do have an opportunity now in time to ajoin the political process, to take their seats at the table and indeed the community, the Nationalist community and indeed the Unionist community, both communities want the men of violence on both sides to turn away, to stop it, turn away from it and I hope that that moral pressure is building all the time on the men of violence and that we, in turn, will be able as governments to give them the opportunity to come away from violence and the opportunity to get themselves into the political process. HUMPHRYS: And finally, the last time we spoke, you said "peace by Christmas was a real possibility" - you still believe that? REYNOLDS: It's coming very near Christmas, Christmas is a time of peace, we would like to think and both Prime Ministers would like to think that we could finish it in time for Christmas but indeed we can't be..put under too much pressure on time because what's important is the end result and that is peace. HUMPHRYS: Taoiseach, thank you very much indeed. ..oooOooo...