................................................................................ ON THE RECORD RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 8.5.94 ................................................................................ JOHN HUMPHRYS: Good afternoon. Last week the Tories came to grief in the town halls of Britain. Next week they launch their manifesto for Europe. We've an opinion poll that says the voters who deserted the Tories want another leader. I'll be talking about the Leadership and Europe to John Redwood, that's after the news read by Moira Stuart. NEWS JOHN HUMPHRYS: If there's one thing that the Conservative Party could do with now, it's a breathing space - time to apply some healing balm to the devastating wounds inflicted in last week's local elections. They're not going to get it. More damaging stories in the papers today and David Mellor demanding that Cabinet heads should roll. Next week they launch their manifesto for the European elections and three weeks after THAT they face the voters again. Mr. Major says that's a prospect he relishes. In which case, say his critics, he must know something we don't know because the conventional wisdom says he'll take another hammering. If he does the party's divisions over Europe will be a big factor. Now it seems that the Tory Pro - Europeans are beginning to shout the odds. I'll be talking to John Redwood, who's seen as one of the most sceptical of the Cabinet sceptics. We also report on how truculent backbenchers, unhappy with Mr. Major's leadership, are holding fire... for the time being. But first, the views of the public, specifically those voters who supported the Tory Party at the last general election. Millions of them have deserted since then. Why? And how do they want to see things change? John Rentoul reports. ***** HUMPHRYS: So what is the party to do? Earlier this morning I spoke to John Redwood, the Welsh Secretary, and arguably the most sceptical member of the Cabinet. I began by asking him whether it's any longer possible for John Major to keep the party together. JOHN REDWOOD MP: Yes, he can, and he must, and it is time for everyone to rally, and to put across our strong and clear messages for the European election campaign. It is only the Conservative Party that will defend our veto in Europe. It is only the Conservative Party who will stand up against extra taxes being imposed from Brussels. It is only the Conservative Party that takes British interests seriously, and will put them forward strongly in Europe. We need Conservative MEPs to support the excellent work government ministers are doing in the Council of Ministers. HUMPHRYS: That's the agenda clearly that you would like to be discussed, but it isn't the agenda that at the moment is being discussed, and Mr Major's problem is that he seems incapable of being able to control the agenda. REDWOOD: Well the media are always trying to throw us off the scent, but I think it is time now we are entering a pre-election period for Europe, for the media to put some of its fire on to the Labour and Liberal parties. You should be inviting them into the studios and finding out why they are proposing these absurd policies that would sell Britain down the river. And remember, it's the socialists who are at the moment in charge in the European parliament. So we are the opposition in the European parliament, it is very important to have more Conservative voices to control some of the undesirable legislation, and to give support to the strong voice of British ministers in the Council of Ministers. HUMPHRYS: How is Mr Major going to stop the leadership speculation? REDWOOD: Well he must press on with his job as he is doing, he has a united cabinet that signed up on Thursday without any dissenting voice to an extremely good manifesto, which is going to set out clearly the things I've just been saying to you, because we want a Europe that creates more jobs, which is friendly to business, which encourages more investment, which is geared to more prosperity for the peoples of western Europe, not a petty-fogging bureaucratic squabbling Europe where too much power is taken to the centre and jobs and prosperity are destroyed. That is a winning message, and one which the Prime Minister will be putting forward very strongly from manifesto launch onwards. HUMPHRYS: Let's assume that he wants to stop the leadership speculation, and that's a reasonable assumption. Wasn't it a great mistake for him to appear outside Number Ten, as he did on Friday morning, and acknowledge openly that a leadership challenge is on the cards? REDWOOD: Well, there had just been a statement from a backbench MP. He dealt with it very strongly and firmly, he said that he is the Prime Minister, he intends to carry on, it is now the time of all men and women of goodwill in the Conservative Party to accept that fact and get down to the business in hand. We need to spend the next few weeks on the doorsteps, meeting people, talking to them, listening to their concerns. Of course accepting that there are criticisms of some things the government has been doing, things that we need to put right, or where we need to take things further. But we also need to get across our very clear messages because I believe our European campaign will strike a chord with people on the merits of the case. HUMPHRYS: But he dealt with it in the sort of language that a fighter, that a boxer might use if he was trying to talk up the gate. REDWOOD: Well I don't think that's quite true. I think he wanted.... HUMPHRYS: Well you heard what he said? REDWOOD: Yes, I heard what he said. I think he just wanted to.... HUMPHRYS: 'I'm here, I'm ready for it, I'm ready for a fight..." REDWOOD: ....get it out of the way, make it very clear that he is the Prime Minister, he is the leader, he has work to do, and I think now we should put that behind us, it is not an issue for the next few weeks, and we should just get on with the work in hand which is the question of the serious elections on Europe, and putting across these vital points, which are of great concern to the nation, not just to the future of the Tory Party. HUMPHRYS: But what he said was bound to be seen,
as it was seen, as an acknowledgement that his position was under threat, or at least under attack. That wasn't a very sensible thing to do, was it? REDWOOD: I think it was just an acknowledgement that one backbench MP had raised this question. It clearly had happened, it was a fact, and so he dismissed it in the way you'd expect from someone who is in his prime and wishes to get on with the job. HUMPHRYS: But he's never felt the need to go on the offensive in quite that way before, and it did make him look rather as if he was rattled, didn't it? REDWOOD: Well, I don't think we've had before a backbencher explicitly saying that he was thinking of running against the Prime Minister.... HUMPHRYS: You've had backbenchers saying he ought to go, haven't you? REDWOOD: .....in a future leadership election. Well, that's a slightly different statement, and so the Prime Minister was just making it very clear to that particular member of parliament that he is the Prime Minister and wishes to remain as the Prime Minister. HUMPHRYS: What if this speculation goes on till November? REDWOOD: Well, I don't believe in discussing hypothetical questions. I am interested in the issues that matter to the British people, and I think the media should also get interested in them, because like it or not, after the European elections the Conservative Party will still be governing the country. The issue in the European elections is do you have a right of centre or a left of centre majority in that Parliament, which is a big issue. Do you want people in that Parliament who will actually block some of the job destroying measures that the Socialists dream up, or will you have a group of people in that Parliament egging them on? Will you have a group of people fighting for Britain or not, that is the issue? HUMPHRYS: But so is the leadership of the Tory Party, a very important issue, and the speculation is going to go on until November? There's no way you can stop it, is there? REDWOOD: That is not the issue of this election. The choice before the voters is a choice about who they want representing them in the European parliament, and the attempt by the media and a few others to get us off that agenda is very destructive of democracy. The issue before our democracy in the next few weeks is who will be our properly elected representatives in that parliament. So let's discuss those issues. Let's discuss what kind of a Europe we want. Let's discuss the issue of taxation, of green policy, of job policies, of social policy in Europe, because those things are going to be settled within the Council of Ministers, and the European parliament has some power to endorse them. HUMPHRYS: But you say the attempt by the media to get you off these issues, it isn't just...the media doesn't actually make these things up, the media reports what it is being told, and it's being told by a very large number of people, inside the Tory Party, that there are deep concerns about the leadership. And this is going to go on and on, and what you're not able to do it seems, is offer any suggestions as to how you can head this off. REDWOOD: But I am telling you what we're doing, and you're also being told by a large number of Conservatives that we want to fight a positive campaign in Europe, and that there are big issues to be discussed, and that every time I come into a studio to talk about those issues - what kind of a Europe do we want, how do we create more jobs - you're always trying to wobble me off it and say 'Well we want to talk about what might happen in November, or what might happen in three years time'. Well let's get on with the immediate task in hand, which is what is going to happen in the next two or three weeks. HUMPHRYS: But you see it isn't just me that wants, as you put it, to wobble you off. We saw David Mellor this morning just a few hours ago, volunteering what he thought Mr Major might do, and he put it quite bluntly, 'sack Michael Portillo'. REDWOOD: Well you always get the odd backbencher with very strong views... HUMPHRYS: Ex-Cabinet minister. REDWOOD: It's a right of any democracy for them to speak out, but the party as a whole is interested in winning. The Conservative Party has a long tradition of winning by adjusting to the views of people and sticking to certain core principles. That's exactly what we have to do now. People have told us in the district elections that there are things that they would like improved or changed in the way central government is run in the country, and that is something we will heed, because of course we listen as well as lead. But when it comes to the European things, I believe that we are striking a chord with the British public, and the important thing for us is to do enough work ahead of those elections to persuade people that they actually matter, that it is important to vote, and that they should vote on the merits of the European case and not on the issues about central government. HUMPHRYS: But you don't want to listen to ex-cabinet ministers and people who are very close the the Prime Minister, such as David Mellor, who says 'let's see a bit of blood on the carpet, "pour encourager les autres", as you put it. REDWOOD: Well, that is the decision of the Prime Minister, who he has in his Cabinet. I saw a united Cabinet last Thursday sign up to a very impressive European manifesto that I am proud to join and to co-sign as one of the people who will be helping lead the campaign with special responsibilities in Wales, and the task in hand is to get across those messages to the British public. HUMPHRYS: And we'll come to that in a minute, but let's just stay for a moment, if we may, with this question of how Mr Major heads off the speculation about his leadership and deals with this particular problem. You say that you don't think he ought to sack anybody, you certainly don't think he ought to sack Mr Portillo. REDWOOD: I didn't say anything of the sort, I said ... HUMPHRYS: Well, let me ask you directly. Do you think he ought to sack Mr Portillo? REDWOOD: I said that is a matter for the Prime Minister but I will tell you how he can head off the problems as you describe them - which I have not accepted in the way you've put them, and that ... HUMPHRYS: What, you don't accept that the Party is divided? REDWOOD: ... and that is to run a good election campaign for the European elections and to surprise people by doing better than the very low expectations there are now around. HUMPHRYS: Well, indeed, and one way of doing ... REDWOOD: And that is what I wish to help the Prime Minister do, which is why I am keen to talk about Europe and the issues before us in that election. HUMPHRYS: But it doesn't surprise you that people want to talk about the leadership because it is such a live issue and it's something that preoccupies MPs, Members of the Conservative Party, Chairmen of constituencies, time and time again. I talked to a very senior back-bencher the other day who said: "I can't go into the tea rooms any longer because if I go into the tea rooms they think I'm stirring up trouble over the leadership." REDWOOD: Well in my own constituency they are not talking about this, they are talking about the success we had in the local elections because we put in a lot of hard work and we actually made a nett gain, strengthened the Conservative hold in Wokingham, and we are now talking about how... HUMPHRYS: Pretty rare experience! REDWOOD: Well, but there were some good results around the country and where we managed to keep it to local issues and motivate our electors they came out and supported us because there are examples of very good local councillors and councillors around the country in Conservative control. And of course we held some of our flagship councils because of that and what we are now talking about in the Wokingham constituency - not all the issuees you've been trying to put before me today - we are talking about the big things in Europe: What kind of a Europe do we want? How can we resist the move to federalism in the Liberal and Labour parties? HUMPHRYS: I promise you that I am going to come on to that. REDWOOD: You don't, you just want to talk about all this other old nonsense. HUMPHRYS: Yes I do, we have plenty of time yet. This is a sensible, long interview and plenty of time, but you are not going to suggest to me that who leads the Tory Party - the Prime Minister of this country - is not an important issue and there is serious... REDWOOD: It's a very important issue and we have a leader, we elected him, the country endorsed him in a big general election victory and I am happy with that and I want to get on and follow his lead. HUMPHRYS: You are happy with that but there are many people in your Party who are not happy with that, who are deeply concerned about Mr Major's ability to unite the party behind him. Now there's another suggestion this morning from Lord Parkinson and that is that Mr Heseltine, who many people speak of as an alternative leader, should become Chairman of the Party. Might that perhaps be a sensible way of easing this problem? REDWOOD: I'm not in the reshuffle game. We are a few weeks away from a very important election. We have a united Cabinet who want to get out and sell the manifesto. That is the work in hand and my job is to put across why Conservative government is better at all levels - and I believe it is and I believe we need to get across that message, because clearly people have some worries at the moment which they expressed very forcibly in many parts of the country on Thursday in the district and borough elections. HUMPHRYS: All right. Well let's talk about Europe then, you were very enthusiastic to do that. The reality is that your Party is hopelessly divided over Europe. REDWOOD: The reality is that only the Conservative Party believes there have to be limits to the moves to federalism in Europe and there has to be a limit to the amount of power that is transferred from the British Parliament to Brussels. And it is the Labour, Liberal and Nationalist parties who would give it all away, sell us out, sell us down the river. They would get rid of our veto on immigration, for example, which is something that matters a great deal to the British people. They would probably get rid of our veto on a number of tax measures. I think they would sign up, they have voted in the past for massive increases in expenditure from Brussels that would need financing. The socialist members in the European Parliament from Britain actually voted for a huge spending package increase, which fortunately didn't go through, which would have meant four hundred pounds a head extra from every household in Britain - a huge increase in tax burden because of their spending ambitions. These are the things that need talking about. HUMPHRYS: If your Party is united on Europe, why can't you stop people arguing then? REDWOOD: Well, in a healthy democratic party there are always nuances and friendly disagreements. That's no surprise. HUMPHRYS: Nuances? They don't sound terribly friendly and they don't sound like nuances! REDWOOD: If you turned your fire to the Labour Party you would find they have much bigger divisions on the subject of Europe because they have some who would leave Europe tomorrow given half the chance, get out of the union, out of the community and others who would have a federal state tomorrow given half the chance. But because you are not interested in the Labour Party at the moment... HUMPHRYS: Well the Labour Party isn't in power at the moment and I'm talking about you at the moment and when I talk to the Labour Party about Europe I shall put these points to them. REDWOOD: But the Socialists are in power in the European Parliament and it's time that you and your colleagues started teasing out from them why they voted in the way they have, very often voting to sell Britain out and to impose more spending in tax on us. HUMPHRYS: The fact is about the only thing you within the Cabinet - you say that you have a manifesto with which you agree on - but that's a manifesto of the lowest common denominators, isn't it? About the only thing you agree on is telling everybody they ought to vote Conservative. I mean, there is so little agreement even within the Cabinet. REDWOOD: That's not true. The Cabinet agrees on a very positive programme for Europe. We know exactly the kind of Europe we want. An open free trade Europe, a Europe that recognises its trade and responsibilities in the rest of the world, a Europe that cuts down on bureaucracy and red tape rather than voting for more of it in the way in which Socialists have time and time again in the European Parliament; a Europe which is open for business not a Europe which suffocates national identity. HUMPHRYS: But the problem is you cannot agree on the sort of Europe you want to see. Mr Portillo himself caused serious divisions, added I should say to the serious divisions, with what he had to say last week. REDWOOD: But I am just telling you that we were all entirely at one on a very detailed and good manifesto which sets out a positive vision for the kind of Europe we want and attacks hard the very negative federal vision that the Socialists of all kinds, Labour and Liberal, would impose on this country given half the chance. HUMPHRYS: So you were entirely at one with Mr Portillo when he said that a single European currency would mean the end of the British Government, in effect? REDWOOD: I believe that Michael is right to say that were we to have a single currency it would obviously transfer powers and responsibilities from British institutions, under the British Parliament, to European institutions. That's quite self-evident, no-body disagrees with that I would have thought. HUMPHRYS: He went rather further than that. REDWOOD: The issue is when do you decide? when do you need to decide? and then how do you decide if there is a serious possibility of a single currency in Western Europe? And the Government's position is very clear on this. There is no need to decide because there isn't at the moment a serious proposition to create a single currency today, tomorrow or in a few months time. When we get to the point - if we get to the point - that Western Europe as a whole is ready for a single currency, we will then have to decide at that point what our conclusion is, whether we recommend it or recommend against it to the British Parliament. HUMPHRYS: But you can't simply sweep this under the carpet, can you? because this is an absolutely fundamental matter of principle. It's going to determine the way Britain and Europe goes for generations to come. REDWOOD: It is a very big issue. We're not sweeping it under the carpet. HUMPHRYS: But you're saying there's no need to decide yet. REDWOOD: Well, there isn't. Because there isn't a proposition. HUMPHRYS: You don't have a view on it Mr Redwood? REDWOOD: There is no proposition. I don't have a view on something which hasn't yet come forward as a firm proposition. HUMPHRYS: Really? REDWOOD: No. HUMPHRYS: You literally do not have a view on whether Britain should sign up to a single currency in Europe? REDWOOD: I will have a view when there is a firm proposition from Europe inviting us to say yes or no. If you said to me to day, "Would you like to get rid of the pound and have the ECU tomorrow", the answer is clearly no. Of course I don't want that. HUMPHRYS: But it is in the ... REDWOOD: But you're making my point for me. You're saying there isn't a proposition. HUMPHRYS: No, no, I'm saying precisely the opposite. It is in the Maastricht Treaty. That is a fundamental aspect of the way Europe is ultimately going to - you have an opt out for ... REDWOOD: We have an opt out for this very reason, that we don't think there is yet a firm enough proposal that we can judge. When there is a firm enough proposal we'll all have strong views - I'm sure I'll have a very strong view and I will argue my case and we'll then see what the government concludes... HUMPHRYS: So you're quite open minded at the moment as to whether there should be a single European currency or not? You ... REDWOOD: I'm saying no to a single currency tomorrow because there isn't a sensible proposal and we made it very clear that we think economies have to come together, their inflation rates, their unemployment rates, their deficits and so forth have to be much closer together before you could risk a single currency, but then there's a separate issue. If you got to that point would you want one? And that is an issue which we will settle when there is a proposition, if there's a proposition. HUMPHRYS: So when the people on the doorstep say to you, "Mr Redwood, I'm worried, because people like you have told me over the years that I should be worried about British sovereignty in Europe, but I'm worried about this single European currency thing. You say, "Don't worry about it, no need to worry about it, beause it's something we can decide much later". That's what you tell them is it? REDWOOD: Yes, and I say that I'm of course very keen to defend British sovereignty, that is obvious and only the Conservative Party will preserve the vetoes over crucial matters like the single currency, and like immigration policy and tax policy which the Labour and Liberal parties would throw away. So it would be quite bizarre of someone to go and vote Liberal in the European elections because they were worried that the Conservatives might give away too much ground, because they'd give away the whole thing immediately. HUMPHRYS: So Mr Portillo was quite wrong to give the kind of direct answer he gave to the sort of direct questions I've just been asking you, last week? REDWOOD: Michael Portillo was quite right to say that a single currency were we to enter one would be a big transfer of responsibilities.. HUMPHRYS: Oh, but he.... REDWOOD: ....to Europe. HUMPHRYS: He went much further than that. REDWOOD: But Michael well knows that the government's line is very clear on this. We all are agreed that there isn't yet a proposal on the table and so you can't say yes or no to something which isn't a formal proposal. There's no need to. HUMPHRYS: You know and I know that he went a good deal further than that. Was he right to go further. REDWOOD: Well, I've made my own statement and I am happy to have made that statement. I am very clear that I don't willingly surrender British sovereignty but I will have an open mind should there come a time when the single currency is more than just a gleam in a few Euro-officials' eyes. HUMPHRYS: Let me give you another quick escape clause there on your problems with Europe, and that is the referendum. Now there seems to be a coalescing around this idea that there ought to be a referendum. What's you view on that? REDWOOD: Well, I think... HUMPHRYS: That's to say of course not a referendum about staying in Europe but a referendum ... REDWOOD: No, this has move on. I think there was an argument about a referendum on Maastricht and that has gone, that's an issue that is now behind us. Now some people are saying we should have a referendum before entering a single currency. Well, I would give you the same answer to that I've just given you on the whole question of the single currency, let's wait and see. There is no proposal on the table. It may be many years away, it may never happen. I find it very difficult to believe that Greece and Germany are within the space of the next few years going to sign up to a single currency together. It requires all sorts of other decisions to be made. HUMPHRYS: So you're not saying no to a referendum? REDWOOD: The Germans would have to spend a lot of money subsidising Greece in order for them to live happily together in a single currency area. HUMPHRYS: You're not saying no to a referendum in short. REDWOOD: I'm not saying yes or no to a referendum, I'm saying you have to wait and see when you get a big enough issue. HUMPHRYS: Final thought then. In 1983 the Labour Party had an unpopular leader - it was preoccupied with internal philosophical arguments and it got twenty-eight per cent in the election, the same as the Liberal Democrats. That is precisely the situation that you, the Tory Party, find yourself in today. How long is it going to take you? It took them ten years to sort that lot out. How long is it going to take you? REDWOOD: It's a very different position. They then had a lot of loony lefties who were disrupting the party and its organisation, they had a lot of wrong policies and wrong themes that needed to be dumped, and it took them a long time to try and get rid of those. We today have had disappointing results last Thursday. There's a message there for us about national policy. I believe that by the time we get to the next general election people will be a lot happier with our national policies just as I believe that in the European elections it's vital that people concentrate on the big European issues. HUMPHRYS: John Redwood thank you very much. ...oooOooo...