................................................................................ ON THE RECORD RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 27.2.94 ................................................................................ JOHN HUMPHRYS: Good Afternoon and welcome to On The Record. How can Sinn Fein, the political wing of the IRA, justify more killings when the people in whose name the IRA claims to be fighting overwhelmingly want it to stop? That's what I asked Martin McGuinness, vice-President of Sinn Fein, when I put the results of our opinion poll to him. We'll hear what he had to say. ****** HUMPHRYS: Martha Kearney at the Sinn Fein conference. Well yesterday I dropped in on it too - to put to Martin McGuinness, the vice-President of Sinn Fein, the findings of that poll. I began by asking him whether Sinn Fein would now bow to the clearly expressed wishes of the people of Ireland and accept the Downing Street Declaration. As ever, because of Government restrictions, his words are voiced by an actor. MARTIN MCGUINNESS: Well, for us to accept the Downing Street Declaration or to come anywhere close to that we have first of all to speak to the British Government about the Declaration. HUMPHRYS: Why? MCGUINNESS: Because we require clarifications. HUMPHRYS: But you know that you are not going to get that clarification. It's been made quite clear you are not going to get any more clarification. MCGUINNESS: Well, I don't believe that the British Government isn't going to shift. I also don't believe that the British Government is going to continue to refuse to give us the clarification which we require. I again state they have lost the clarification to bid. In the past few days we have had the British Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, Patrick Mayhew, the British Foreign Secretary, Douglas Hurd, and the British Prime Minister himself in the pages of the Irish news, addressing Sinn Fein. This is the first time they have seriously addressed Sinn Fein and its supporters since the signing of the Declaration. Up until that time we were ignored. HUMPHRYS: But you are not prepared to listen to the overwhelming voice, expressed in this poll of the people of the whole of Ireland - North and South, who are saying the time for the killing has come and gone, you must accept this Downing Street Declaration. 'You have had,' they say - overwhelmingly - 'enough time.' MCGUINNESS: Well I don't see how the people of Ireland could say that. I mean, all our polls have told us that only six per cent of the electorate have actually read the Downing Street Declaration. HUMPHRYS: But they know the essence of it. I mean, for Pete's sake, people do know what is going on in their own back yard. MCGUINNESS: I don't think they do. The BBC conducted a recent vox pops in Derry where I come from where they went through the Bogside and asked people did they understand what the Downing Street Declaration was about? And ninety nine per cent of the people couldn't understand it. HUMPHRYS: Do you accept the basic principle that the people of the North have the right to say 'yes' or 'no' to any change affecting their constitutional status? MCGUINNESS: I don't believe that the Unionists should have a veto, if that's what you're asking me. HUMPHRYS: So again you are out of step with the people of the whole of Ireland? Because they believe that the people of the North have that absolute right. MCGUINNESS: I don't believe that the people of Ireland accept that the Unionists should have a veto. I don't believe that the Dublin Government accept that the Unionists should have a veto. I think Albert Reynolds has said on a number of occasions that no-one has a veto. HUMPHRYS: Well, you use the word 'veto' but what we are saying is that they have a right - that people of Northern Ireland and what the people in this poll quite clearly said - the question was asked of them directly, 'should they have the right to say yes or no to any change affecting their constitutional status?' Now, self-determination is what that's all about and everybody, the vast majority - not everybody - but the vast majority in this poll say in answer to that question 'yes'. Seventy nine per cent 'yes' twelve per cent 'no'. So you are out of step with the people of Ireland. MCGUINNESS: Well, I don't believe we are out of step with the people of Ireland because I think that it's quite clear that very many of the political parties in Ireland do not accept that any party to this conflict should have a veto over political progress. And what we are saying quite clearly is that this is one issue in the Downing Street Declaration which has to be explored. That's an issue on which we seek clarification from the British Government. HUMPHRYS: But you cannot expect, realistically, the British Government to say we are prepared to talk about - in the face of violence, under the threat of a gun - the people of Northern Ireland being told by a British Government we are going to abandon you, you are left to your own devices, you are going to be a part of Northern Ireland ... MCGUINNESS: I am not looking for the British Government to talk to anybody under the sight of a gun. We had a situation last year where Sinn Fein - and I was one of the people who was intimately involved in it - attempted to bring about a situation whereby discussions would take place between representatives of Sinn Fein and the British Government in proper conditions. The British Government ran away from their own proposals. It was they who proposed it - we didn't propose it. They put a proposal to us which dealt with this issue, the issue of when talks would take place between Republican representatives and the British Government, and we decided on the basis of the discussions that we had with the British Government that we could go to the IRA in an attempt to bring about a situation where the IRA would create the conditions where discussions could take place between Republican representatives and the British Government. And when the British Government were told that the answer to that was positive, they ran away from their own proposals. And we are saying now to the British Government that we can get back to that situation. HUMPHRYS: But you could get to that situation in a matter of weeks - months perhaps, but probably weeks - if you simply accepted this Declaration at this stage and peace could come to the whole of Ireland. MCGUINNESS: It's unreasonable for people to expect ... HUMPHRYS: To stop the killing? MCGUINNESS: It's totally reasonable to stop killing, yes ... because I'm not involved in killing. HUMPHRYS: But you've already said that Sinn Fein could go to the IRA and say 'let's stop the killing,' you've already accepted that, many times. And again in this interview. MCGUINNESS: We've made a very positive contribution to the establishment of a peace process. We could get back to that situation. That's what I'm saying quite clearly. HUMPHRYS: But you are not prepared to, you're dragging it out. MCGUINNESS: We have a situation where the British Government are saying, where the British Government are saying 'let's leave the guns outside the table, that the IRA can't come to the table with guns'. HUMPHRYS: Which is entirely reasonable. MCGUINNESS: Entirely reasonable, I agree. But I say 'let's leave all the guns outside the room'. Let's leave all the British guns and the Irish guns outside the table in a pile and let's leave beside them in another pile all the injustices which have been inflicted on the community which I represent in the six counties. And the greatest injustice inflicted on that community...is to be trapped - let me finish please - is to be trapped in a state where they feel oppressed and discriminated against. Let's leave the veto and the guns outside the door. Let's walk in as equals and not as second class citizens and let's discuss this problem and get a resolution. HUMPHRYS: This poll was carried out in the last few days, when people have had time to look at what's in that Declaration and to weigh the whole situation for themselves. And their conclusion is that you have now had enough time - they don't want to see any more people killed in Northern Ireland or anywhere else and it can be stopped. MCGUINNESS: Right, okay, that's an opinion poll. You have told me that it has taken place and I accept that is there. But I want to talk about more important issues. The issues that I want to talk about are whether or not we are going to come to a situation whereby all the parties to this conflict can get into a situation whereby the conflict can be ended. HUMPHRYS: There's nothing more important than peace, surely? MCGUINNESS: Absolutely. Peace is our focus for 1994; 1994, as far as we are concerned, is a year of opportunity. 1993 was a year of missed opportunity. HUMPHRYS: Well then go to the IRA and say 'stop it now' and then you will have peace and then you can ... MCGUINNESS: I am prepared to take my responsibility as a Republican leader seriously. The British Government have to take their role in this conflict seriously also. They have to address what they have attempted to do in interesting and sometimes intriguing statements from the three leaders. They have addressed the Nationalist community. They have said interesting things. The British Prime Minister went as far as to say, and I don't know if I am quoting him correctly, but Britain had an awful lot to be ashamed of in the past because of their involvement in Ireland. Let's talk about what is wrong. Let's talk about the core substantive issues and let's get a resolution on the problem. It surely is not a major difficulty, in the light of all the disclosures which took place last year, for the British Government and representatives of Sinn Fein to sit down now and work out a way where we can move forward. HUMPHRYS: But until they do that, until and unless they sit down with you - as far as you are concerned, as far as the IRA is concerned - the killing goes on. MCGUINNESS: No I'm not issuing any threats against anybody. HUMPHRYS: But that is the reality of the situation? MCGUINNESS: That's your reality. HUMPHRYS: I'm asking you whether what you are saying is... MCGUINNESS: Well it's not my reality. HUMPHRYS: Well let me phrase the question directly. Unless the British Government is prepared to sit down with you and talk about the things you want to talk about you will say no to this Declaration and the killing will go on? MCGUINNESS: No. We haven't said no to the Declaration - and the killing doesn't have to go on. We can reach a situation if people will be sensible, if we can get back to the situation which developed last year. Can we recreate that this year? I think we can. I think that people are trying after hundreds of years to bring about a situation where this whole thing could be rapidly sorted out and I think it is unrealistic. Sinn Fein and the attitude that we have taken in recent times is to move forward cautiously because we want to lay down a proper peace process which can bring lasting peace to Ireland. HUMPHRYS: And what do you say to the next mother of a child who may be blown apart by an IRA bomb because this Declaration wasn't accepted? MCGUINNESS: Well what does John Major say to the next child which is killed by a British soldier or a member of the RUC or to the mother of Fergal Kereher (phon) or to Fergal Kereher's wife who was shot dead by a British soldier in South Armagh, who walked into that court and was tried and got off. There's no - nobody has a monopoly of suffering. All of us have suffered. British soldiers have lost their lives. RUC men have lost their lives. IRA volunteers have lost their lives. Civilians have been killed. And it's sad and it's tragic and we want it all to end. HUMPHRYS: Martin McGuinness, thank you. ...oooOooo...