............................................................................... ON THE RECORD DAVID HUNT INTERVIEW RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION: BBC-1 DATE: 12.12.93 ............................................................................... JOHN HUMPHRYS: And having listened to all that, David Hunt, the Employment Secretary, so what was all the fuss about, they've got what they want, everybody's happy including presumably the British government? DAVID HUNT MP: Yes, I don't think there's much point John, in trying to play up divisions. There was some originial divisions, the idea of compulsory work sharing, the idea of compulsory reductions in working weeks, that was very much the socialist language that existed at one time within the European Community. That's now past history, I think we have a White Paper which is very much closer to the imput that both Kenneth Clarke and I put into the Commission as to what we wanted to see and the magic words, "improve the flexibility of the labour markets", is in this White Paper and I very much appreciate the way in which the Commission have responded to the contributions they received. HUMPHRYS: You say playing at differences but these are pretty fundamental things we're talking about here. I mean the Chancellor of Exchequer, John Major, yourself, had said "we don't want masses of extra borrowing on the part of Europe", because we can't afford it, it's as simple as that. What Padraig Flynn has just been telling us, as you've heard, is that they have carte blanche to do what they set out in the White Paper in the first place to do. HUNT: Well we quite rightly, together with a number of other member countries, objected to the idea of union bonds, an idea thrown up seemingly at the last momment. HUMPHRYS: But you've accepted it now. HUNT: No, we haven't. HUMPHRYS: But Padraig Flynn just said you had. HUNT: It's not in the communique and the Commissioner made that clear. HUMPHRYS: But he also said that if that was what was needed then that was what they could do, he was quite clear about that. HUNT: Well we don't believe it's needed and can I just say about trans-European networks. At Edinburgh, we agreed the importance of trans-European networks, we made very substantial funds available most of which have not been spent. We believe the private sector has a very critical role to play in building up these networks which are of vital importance but the most important thing about this White Paper is the recognition that the only way to create jobs is not for member governments to create more jobs, not for public money to create more jobs but to create an enterprise atmosphere in which we see more jobs being created. HUMPHRYS: And to make very large sums of money available which the European Commission will borrow and then will make available to people who need it. Maybe through Euro-bonds because you heard what Mr Flynn said. Jean-Luc Dehaene, the Prime Minister of Belgium said "we have decided to exclude no means of raising money". Now either that is true or it isn't true. HUNT: It's been remitted to the finance ministers, which is, of course, what our Chancellor wanted in the first place. What he objected to was that the White Paper was produced just after a meeting of the finance ministers which was not able to consider this... HUMPHRYS: But it can still happen then, so it can still happen, it's gone to the finance ministers, the finance ministers may well say 'fine, we can have these Euro-bonds, we can borrow the money the way we choose to borrow it'. HUNT: I think we're going down a side alley with trans-European networks. The most important thing is what the Commissioner has said that we find a way of creating the jobs and the atmosphere for the creation of jobs in Europe that we need. Unemployment is too high. We believe in the UK that we are winning by increasing flexibility of labour markets. We're seeing unemployment falling in the UK, the only major country which is below the European average in unemployment and where it's falling and we believe our language is the best language and there's no doubt our language is reflected in this document and I greatly welcome that. HUMPHYRS: But Mr Delors certainly wouldn't agree you were going down a side alley, we at the moment going down some sort of side alley, he would say this is the M1 of the argument because what this money is needed for to build these trans-European networks, to create the infrastructure that is going to lead in the long term to creating tens of millions of new jobs. HUNT: When I talk about a side alley, I think in a way I don't want to look for division. There was rightly a protest, there was rightly a protest about the way in which union bonds were introduced. That's all past history now. I believe we have an agenda on which we can unite particularly John, you may remember, I've always been calling for an audit of competitiveness. For all the regulations that come forward at national and Community level, we should just ask what are the effects on employment of these regulations. Now that's contained in the communique, I greatly welcome that but the important thing is to create a high wage, high productivity economy in Europe. I don't want to see any businesses moving outside Europe, I don't want to see any businesses moving to the Far East or to the Pacific rim. We want quality jobs, good jobs, good opportunity. I want a free trade, free enterprise Europe and I think that's much closer after this summit. HUMPHRYS: I do understand that but what I'm trying to explore is what it is you're united on and whether you are now united on, to put it crudely, the Delors plan. That is to say a plan which will enable Europe to borrow billions of pounds to spend on these trans-European networks, these TENs, as they're called. Now that is fundamental, is it not, to free... HUNT: But Edinburgh agreed twenty four billion pounds for trans-European networks, so we had very largely made these decisions. When I talk about a side alley, the most important thing now is to see the labour market in Europe freed up so that we can create the jobs we're going to need. HUMPHRYS: I do understand that but can I just be quite clear that you are now agreed and this is really a sort of yes or no issue isn't it? You are now agreed that this money that Mr Delors wants to spend as he spelled out in this White Paper which was rubbished by John Major and by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, you have now agreed the fundamentals of that White Paper, we can be clear about that? HUNT: Yes, but do reflect though on the communique that we are all agreed about.... HUMPHRYS: Yes, yes........ HUNT: No, it isn't because if you look at the communique, it is does not contain some of the things that were in the White Paper which we objected to. The sort of artificial target of fifteen million jobs, there were various other things. You will now see we are united. Yes we are united behind the communique that all the heads of government have signed up to and I believe that's very good news for Europe. HUMPHRYS: But why was it necessary to rubbish it in quite the way it was rubbished? Mr Clarke - perverse. A government official - cynical and transparent. John Major - silly. Why the need for that kind of language, that tone? HUNT: Well I greatly regret that the whole idea of union bonds was thrown in at the last moment. I think we rightly criticised that but there are some huge issues here John, which really push that into the background. The biggest issue is GATT, that's going to mean more jobs, we believe four hundred thousand more jobs in the UK in the long run. It's going to mean more exports, lower prices for consumers. There's some enormous issues here, we could see a turning point for the unemployed in Europe with greater opportunities ahead. HUMPHRYS: But Europe is in itself an enormous issue and a relationship between the countries is an enormous issue. The tone, the content of your relationships with each other is enormously important and what you seem to be saying is that John Major and Kenneth Clarke and everybody else rubbished this document before they've even properly read it because when they finally got to Brussels, they all said, "well, that's okay, we can go with that, we're happy with it". HUNT: I think the reaction of the British media did distort our approach. We have, of course, read.... we had read the White Paper, there is much in this White Paper with which we agree, we strongly disagreed with the idea of union bonds being thrown up at the last moment. But there is so much we can unite on. So let's focus on unity, let's focus on harmony rather than division because there is here an agenda which is good news for the unemployed of Europe. We in this country have pioneered a number of things like the YT guarantee, you don't get that sort of guarantee in other countries in the Community. We pioneered a new concept of modern apprenticeships which I'll be wanting to talk to my European colleagues about. So there are lots of good ideas coming forward, lots more hope for the unemployed. HUMPHRYS: So you say let's focus on harmony. Does that mean that we will see a difference then in tone, in the British government's tone towards Europe and all its works, in future we'll hear less of the kind of language we've been hearing this past week for instance. HUNT: Well I believe the Commission has shifted its ground in recognition of the real concern in a lot of member countries that we want to see more flexibility in labour markets, a move away from the language of the past. Now I welcome that and I believe now we have an agenda on which we can unite. HUMPHRYS: So, the language of the past, move away from that you said. No more to use a phrase that you famously used in Blackpool just a few months ago, "Jumped up socialist bureaucrat", referring presumably to Jacques Delors - no more of that? HUNT: Don't expect me for a moment to start trying to build bridges with socialism. HUMPHRYS: ..... Jacques Delors? HUNT: No, no, no. I'm talking about a Socialist, a Socialist vision, a Socialist ... there are Labour members of the European parliament who want to see a socialist super-state. Now I will fight that as long as I have political breath in my body. I don't want to see a return to that old corporate socialism that I fought so hard in my home city of Liverpool. I don't want to see that coming back. I believe in a free enterprise, free trade Europe and that I believe now is closer than every before. HUMPHRYS: So, no apology to Jacques Delors then. He's still a jumped up Socialist bureaucrat? HUNT: Well, I'll fight Socialism and if he's standing as the next Socialist President of France I will continue fighting Socialists wherever they are, because I believe they have the wrong philosophy. Don't forget, I remember the last Labour government introducing a bill to make registered dock workers compulsory in a five mile radius of a port. That's just the wrong emphasis, the idea of a compulsory working week, reductions in working hours, compulsory work sharing. That I will continue to fight, but that's not in this White Paper. It's not only a White that you ought to look at what's in it, you also ought to look at what's not in it and that's why it's an agenda on which we can unite. HUMPHRYS: But I'm looking for some harmony in the sort of response you've just given me, and I look, I seek a harmonious response to Jacques Delors and I hear you repeating the same charges that you made and caused such ructions with only a few months ago. HUNT: But you mustn't confuse my attack on Socialism .... HUMPHRYS: No, no, your attack on Delors. HUNT: No, no, You mustn't confuse my attack on Socialism. I shall continue that war as long as I live politically. But you mustn't confuse that with my vision of Europe. Europe was the issue that brought me into politics. Europe is the future, but it's a free enterprise, free trade Europe, a free Europe that I want to see. HUMPHRYS: But it didn't sound like an attack on Socialism you see, because if it had been you'd have said "Jumped up", no, you wouldn't have used the phrase jumped up, would you, you'd have just said "Socialist bureaucracy or something, but you didn't, you used a very specific phrase (Jumped up Socialist bureaucrat). That was pretty personal, pretty unpleasant. HUNT: But you forget what preceded that comment. What preceded that comment was that what brought me into politics was my belief in Europe, my vision of Europe, and I didn't want to see that vision tainted by a socialist super-state, and that is the language still being used by the Socialists in Europe, so we mustn't confuse the political argument with the real vision of Europe that lies ahead, and I believe this has been a very successful summit. I agree with the Commissioner it has been tremendously successful. We must now build on that success. HUMPHRYS: Michael Heseltine says we - presumably he includes you in this, "We must not be the club bore on Europe, sitting just inside the door moaning". Isn't that what you're doing? HUNT: No, not at all. I mean the commissioner will verify that at our social affairs meetings I always put very clearly what we believe in in the UK, what I believe in personally, and I find that we strike a chord which each other. The army of unemployed in Europe has grown far too large. We have to do something about that, we are doing something about it in the UK. The Commissioner mentioned the long term unemployed, over half the unemployed are long term - not in the UK. A third, two-thirds of the those becoming unemployed in the UK find a job, come off the register within six months. Now we've still got to focuss on the longer term unemployed, we've got to find a way of getting them back in touch with the world of work. That's where we unite. HUMPHRYS: And you're united with Mr Flynn on saying we should borrow if necessary the billions of pounds Europe in which you passionately believe, you've just been saying, should if necessary borrow these billions of pounds for the sake of the long term unemployed. That's what you're saying. HUNT: Well, what we have said very clearly is that we should not borrow our way to full employment. That is the last thing. HUMPHRYS: .....a contradiction... HUNT: No, no, no, it isn't, because if you read carefully the communique that's been issued by the heads of government they are turning their back on that road. You see if you spent public money to try and get the unemployed back to work it would only be a temporary palliative, you couldn't... HUMPHRYS: Not if .....infrastructure ... HUNT: No, no, you couldn't continue that without the injection of private sector money, and you'll see that reflected in the language of the communique. I want to see the private sector - I want to see a positive partnership between the public and the private sector. That is very much in tune with my vision of a free trade, free enterprise Europe, and that's going to come and that's very good news for the UK and for Europe. HUMPHRYS: David Hunt, thank you very much indeed. ...oooOooo...