............................................................................... ON THE RECORD JOHN HUME INTERVIEW RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION: BBC-1 DATE: 5.12.93 ............................................................................... JOHN HUMPHRYS: Mr Hume, what is the key? JOHN HUME: Well, the key is, as I have been making clear throughout them listening to all this speculation, in the first place, the key arises from the discussions that I have been involved in with Mr. Adams and both Governments are now totally and fully informed and as I have made clear throughout and a lot of people don't seem to hear or want to hear. What we're talking about in our dialogue is not a solution to the problem that would be imposed on anyone. We're talking simply about achieving a process that would achieve a total cessation of violence and that process would not threaten any section of the community, and written into every statement that we have put out. We've put the word agreement in so often to make it clear that what we're talking about is agreement among the divided people and presumably when the people in the process that we're talking about which is both Governments and all parties get to the table, that's the stage at which everything will go on the table including the articles two and three that people are talking about including everything else because the truth is that up till now everything has failed so everything should be on the table but the objective is agreement among the divided people, and what I'm talking about isn't. There's two processes involved in what I'm talking about. The first is one which will bring about a total cessation of violence because in the last twenty years all the talks that have taken place have taken place against a background of violence. If we can at last create circumstances where violence is totally ended and the talks take place in that atmosphere, you don't have two thoughts to rub together to recognise that it should be a lot less difficult to reach agreement in such an atmosphere. HUMPHRYS: But you see a lot of people say that sort of answer is clearly well meaning but it's so vague as to threaten everybody and you say it threatens nobody, nothing will be imposed and the Loyalist population of Northern Ireland hears you saying that and sees all manner of threats involved in it. HUME: Well could you tell me what threat they see in. HUMPHRYS: Well yes, they're afraid of seeing a united Ireland imposed upon them. HUME: Well, I mean, have you listened to what I said? HUMPHRYS: Yes, very clearly. HUME: And have you heard me saying that it's the people of Ireland who are divided and that the answer is agreement among the people of Ireland. HUMPHRYS: Yes I heard you say that HUME: Pardon? HUMPHRYS: I heard you say that. HUME: How could that be imposing Irish unity? HUMPHRYS: Well ... HUME: Do you not understand that an agreement could take any form? Of course it could take the form of Irish unity, but it could take any other form as well. The only form it will take is the form that the people of Ireland, North and South agree to, and as I have said repeatedly in public, whatever form that agreement takes, whatever form it takes, as long as it's agreement, and I've said repeatedly to the Nationalist Community that it's people who are divided, not territory. The traditional Nationalist mind said here is that this is our land, and my argument against that is that it's people who are here and it's people who are divided. Without people, it's only a jungle and you can't bring people together, only by agreement and whatever form that agreement takes as long as it's an agreement, the quarrel is over and then at last we'll start working together and as we work together, presumably, the old prejudices will be eroded and away down the road somewhere will emerge a new Ireland whose model will probably be very different from any of the traditional ones that we've been arguing about for the last fifty years. HUMPHRYS: I take that point but as you say that is a long way down the road, and in the meantime, you have a situation where you had your talks with Gerry Adams, you apparently agreed upon something and you've told Dublin what that is, you've told Downing Street what that is, you may have told people in the United States what that is. You haven't told the Loyalist community of Northern Ireland what that is, and they're scared. HUME: In the first place, I have informed both Governments what it is and I have made, and so has Mr Adams clear public statements, and everything is in that public statement. Last weekend I made a major speech to my Party Conference in which I spelt it out in detail, but commentators don't seem to want to know this. I made very clear in that that I was addressing the traditional reasons given by the IRA for their use of violence and that I was asking the British Government to make clear to them what I had already made clear to them that those reasons no longer existed, and to come out very clearly with the statement which makes it clear that the traditional reasons for the existence of the IRA, who are a product of British history, a product of Unionist history and a product of Nationalist history, they are the last remaining product of that past and they still believe in the old historic reasons for Britain's presence in Ireland, and what I have asked Mr Major to do is to state that those reasons no longer exist, and if he does so, he then would set up with Dublin a process involving both Governments in all parties which would include every party with an elected mandate and evey party then totally committed to totally peaceful means. HUMPHRYS: But if he does that, Mr. Hume, if he does that, will he not be saying to the Loyalist community in Northern Ireland, you may be thrown out at some stage, you may, and I know this is evoctive language, but this is how they see it, you may at some stage be thrown out of the United Kingdom. HUME: Well I think it's quite the opposite of that. In this sense, the Loyalist people through their spokesmen keep asking the British Government to reiterate their guarantee. That emphasises there's always a distrust there that someday, some British Government will sell them out. They said last week they don't trust the present British Government because it's talking privately to the IRA, they said they don't trust the opposition. What I'm actually asking them to do is to trust themselves and nobody else, and to stand on their own feet and negotiate a relationship for the first time ever with the rest of Ireland because we can't ... I mean can I say it any clearer. We can't solve the problem without them and their real strength is their numbers and their geography, and now is the time for them to sit down and negotiate their own relationship, whatever form that takes with the rest of the island, and they're better to do it now than to keep on relying on asking British Governments to keep restating guarantees because at some future date they mightn't be a majority in Northern Ireland. Why don't they stand up now and negotiate an agreement which will protect their heritage, their ethos and their rights for the future as well as for the present? I mean, I'm prepared to stand on my feet without the assistance of any government and stand up for the rights of the people I represent and I know that any agreement I reach is one that I can put to the people. That's all I'm asking from the James Molyneuxs' and the Ian Paisleys' of this world. HUMPHRYS: And what you're asking from John Major, he hasn't yet delivered? HUME: No, and he has been sitting on it for some considerable period of time, and as a result of what was delivered to him, he was able to say in his Guildhall speech that this is the best opportunity for peace in twenty years. HUMPHRYS: So why do you belive he hasn't ... (talking together) HUMPHRYS: I beg your pardon. HUME: Why does he say that if he doesn't believe it, because I believe it is and I have been here in the front line against violence for the last twenty five years, and I believe we've a major opportunity for peace. HUMPHRYS: So why do you think Mr Major isn't turning that key, to use your phrase? HUME: Well I don't understand why he's not, and I'm not going to indulge in speculation. The speculation is that he's engaged in private deals with certain parties in Northern Ireland. Now, I wouldn't do a private deal with Mr Major about Northern Ireland because I know that a private deal with any section of our people is not a solution, and I'm not asking for private deals, and if you read all of the statements that have been made since my talks with Mr. Adams, you will find that I'm underlining all the time that what I'm trying to get is agreement among our divided people. The one thing that has never happened throughout this century is that the Unionist people have never settled their relationship with the rest of the island, and that's the central relationship to the problem because that's why they overthrew home rule by force against the wishes of the British parliament in 1912. That's why they opposed Sunningdale (phon) agreement, that's why they opposed the Anglo-Irish agreement. Until their relationship is settled with the rest of the island and they no longer have any fear of being subsumed, nothing is going to be stable, so surely logic says, get the Unionists and the rest of us all round a table and get governments to agree that whatever agreement emerges from that we'll endorse. HUMPHRYS: A final quick thought if I may, Mr. Hume. Does the prospect of a Loyalist backlash in Northern Ireland now worry you. HUME: The prospect of any violence in Northern Ireland concerns me very deeply, because we've been living with it for so long, but I find it a bit strange that every time, every time there is talk of change, there is threat of a Loyalist backlash. I'm not talking, and I mean I don't see why people should backlash against a suggestion, are you willing to have your representatives stand on their own feet, not relying on any guarantees from anybody else, only the guarantees of yourselves, and make an agreement that will protect your heritage, your ethos and your rights for ever. HUMPHRYS: Mr. Hume, thank you very much indeed.