................................................................................ ON THE RECORD RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 31.10.93
................................................................................ JOHN HUMPHRYS: Good afternoon and welcome to On The Record. Another seven people murdered in Northern Ireland. A dreadful end to a dreadful week. And yet on Friday there had been at least a little optimism in the air, John Major and Albert Reynolds getting together in Brussels for what were billed as "substantive" talks. Where does all that go now? I'll be talking to John Hume, the leader of the SDLP. According to Mr. Major his talks with Gerry Adams are at the end of the road. **** But first to Northern Ireland. It's difficult - impossible, perhaps - for those of us who don't live there to fully understand the sheer horror of it. On a crude arithmetical basis, if the same proportion of murders were carried out on the mainland of Britain in relation to the population we'd have had a thousand dead in the past eight days. Unthinkable. No government could allow it to continue and expect to survive. So what IS happening to find a political solution? Well, John Hume's meetings with Gerry Adams have been overshadowed by that meeting between the Prime Ministers of Great Britain and the Irish Republic. Overshadowed and overtaken, according to Mr. Major. I talked about that to John Hume a little earlier this morning, but I began by asking for his reaction to the latest murders. JOHN HUME MP: Well just another appalling slaughter of very innocent people and it really is quite incredible that the people who carried out these terrible murders said they were doing so as retaliation for similar slaughter of people in the Shankill Road last week. The people murdered last week were every bit as innocent as were the people in the Shankill Road and I would be certain that the families of the people in the Shankill Road would be horrified that the murder of their loved ones would be used as an excuse to do exactly the same to other innocent people. HUMPHRYS: You'll have known that pub of course. HUME: Oh I know that pub well, it's just outside my constituency but it's in the district where it's in the north western, we all know one another very well there. I haven't heard the names yet of the people who have lost their lives but I would be certain that I would know some of them personally. HUMPHRYS: Where do we do from here? HUME: Well of course I've been saying for some time now, for some time and I want to underline that and I hope the government are listening, that we've had twenty thousand troops on our streets, we've twelve thousand armed policeman on our streets, we have the strictest security laws in western Europe and none of these things have solved our problem. The number of people who've died in our streets is the equivalent of a hundred thousand people dying in the streets of Britain. If that were happening then the House of Commons would be packed to the doors every day until they got it sorted out. Yet the government keeps telling us in every statement they make that we're an integral part of the United Kingdom. I think I'm making my point, I have been saying for some time now that given the fact that all that security hasn't produced the results, the logic of that is dialogue and when I see the opportunity as I saw it of dialogue, direct dialogue with Mr Adams that could lead to a total cessation of this violence, I felt it was my duty to do so. That dialogue has led me to the point of issuing a joint statement with Mr Adams. Now remember I am the leader of a party that has been in the front line against this violence for twenty years and have been at many risks, as have been members of my party but when I say that that dialogue is the best hope I've seen for peace for twenty years and in our statement we say that we're talking about a process which involves both governments, all parties and what we're talking about is agreement among the divided people to which all sections can give their loyalty. The least I would expect would an immediate invitation from the Prime Minister - come and see me. Because if it was happening in the streets of any city in Britain and the MP stood up and said what I've said, I think he would be in Downing Street within minutes. HUMPHRYS: And you've not had that invitation? HUME: No. HUMPHRYS: And you're waiting for it? HUME: Well I would expect that the Prime Minister would... I think this nonsense which is behind all of this, is it because I'm talking to Gerry Adams, they don't want to be seen to be talking to me because it looks, this fingerprint.... HUMPHRYS: Your hands are... HUME: I'm talking about saving human life, governments over the last twenty years, troops over the last twenty years, policemen over the last twenty years, laws over the last twenty years and politicians including myself, over the last twenty years have all failed in all the efforts we have made including condemnation and violence everything but I am now saying that this dialogue is the best hope I've seen. Surely I'm entitled to say to the Prime Minister, alright, given that I've said that, why don't you put me to the test? HUMPHRYS: But have you not already briefed Mr Major, have you not already briefed Downing Street about these talks and given that you have, what else is there, what else can you offer Mr Major that you haven't already offered? HUME: Well I think that both governments have said in their... and both Prime Ministers and I'm glad they met, that... HUMPHRYS: That's Mr Reynolds and Mr Major. HUME: Yes, that they are beginning a process involving both governments and naturally I welcome that very much because I think that the attention of both governments have to be concentrated on this terrible problem and of course if they take the trouble to read the statement that Mr Adams and I issued, that's precisely what we said. Its two governments should begin a process involving all parties. HUMPHRYS: So what else do you have to offer then? HUME: I think that both governments are aware of the proposals that emerged from my dialogue with Mr Adams and the process that has emerged that I have said and he has said the substantial progress towards lasting peace. I want the governments to act on it and act quickly on it. HUMPHRYS: But act on what, you see, this is what we don't understand. HUME: I'm sorry I know you don't understand and you're not going to understand in this programme. HUMPHRYS: Why not? HUME: Because it's... that's just the way it has to be for the present. At the end of the day, the whole community has to know what this is all about but let me stress there is no threat in this process that is being proposed to bring about a total cessation of violence, there is no threat to any section of our community, none whatsoever. HUMPHRYS: Does the government, does Mr Major know precisely what went on in your talks with Mr Adams and does Mr Major approve of what you had agreed or discussed with Mr Adams? HUME: Well I have no evidence of any description of Mr Major's approval or disapproval. HUMPHRYS: But does he know? HUME: What he has said is that it's a matter for myself to talk to whoever I wish and that he respects my judgement in these matters. According to the joint statement issued, Mr Reynolds briefed him on his discussions with me on that matter. HUMPHRYS: So he does know? HUME: Well it...I'm only reading what their joint statement said. HUMPHRYS: And he has said... HUME: But I am available. HUMPHRYS: But Mr Major has said quite clearly that that process, that dialogue between you and Gerry Adams has run its course. HUME: Yes, he has said that and I am saying, I am saying, as somebody who has been in the front line against this violence and with due respect to Mr Major, knows a little more about it than he does. HUMPHRYS: So Mr Major's wrong? HUME: I am saying Mr Major as Prime Minister, if someone in my position is saying that I believe, I believe there is the best opportunity here for lasting peace by which I mean a total cessation of violence, the least I expect is that you should listen to what I have to say. HUMPHRYS: So he is, Mr Major is wrong when he says he believes that that dialogue, that process that you began with Gerry Adams has run its course, you believe that there is further that that can go and it ought to be exploited by Mr Major and Mr Reynolds or by Mr Major? HUME: Well when I say that it's the best opportunity for peace I've seen in twenty years, if Mr Major is not going to look at why I say that then I hope that he... I assume from that that he has a better hope of peace and I'm waiting to hear what it is. HUMPHRYS: But he's looked at it because you have told Albert Reynolds, Albert Reynolds has told the Prime Minister, Mr Major. Mr Major has taken on board, has considered presumably, what it is that you've done with Gerry Adams and concluded that it can go no further. HUME: I'm not aware of how far he has taken anything on board but I would expect as a Member of Parliament in the House of Commons and as a leader of a party in the House of Commons, I would expect that he would want to hear what I would have to say face to face and tell me face to face what's wrong with what I have said. HUMPHRYS: Given that he doesn't want to see you and your suspicion is that he doesn't want to see you because you have as it were, the fingerprints of Gerry Adams on you now, you're tainted because of your relationship with Gerry Adams. What do you now do, do you have more meetings with Gerry Adams, do you try to push it forward unilaterally? HUME: I am an elected representative of the people of Northern Ireland, three thousand, three hundred of our people have been murdered. That's the equivalent of a hundred thousand people in Britain. It is the responsibility of every elected representative to do everything in their power, everything in their power to stop that and the least responsibility that they have, the least they can do is enter into dialogue directly with the people involved and I apologise to no-one for that and if anybody is telling me that I'm tainted because I do that, you know, I don't know what sort of minds they've got because I think it is our responsibility to do everything in our power to bring this violence to an end and what's more what I'm doing has the massive support of ordinary people on both sections of our community because I've never in my twenty years, experienced the nature of the support and the way that it's being expressed to me by people in the streets, by telephone and in particular, by families of those who have lost loved ones who don't want to see other families going through the suffering that they've gone through. HUMPHRYS: You say that but isn't it the case that the Loyalists, the Protestants in Northern Ireland are terrified of any kind of deal that might involve Gerry Adams because that would be as far as they're concerned the ultimate sell out and hence there is the danger of growing sectarian violence because of fear. HUME: Well in the first place, I have made clear throughout and I have a record there of over twenty years that people can have a look at, what I have made clear throughout as has Mr Adams that we're not engaged in secret deals. Secret deals don't solve problems. What we have said, we're involved in a process which must involve both governments and all parties whose objective is agreement among our divided people an agreement which all our traditions must give their allegiance and agreement, an agreement that must respect our diversity. Now I have kept repeating that statement since we made it and I have asked anyone to tell me what they disagree with it. Now the Loyalist paramilitary some weeks ago said that if the IRA were to... the impression they've given all along is just a reaction to the IRA and that if the IRA were to stop they would cease immediately. I immediately put out a statement welcoming that statement by them. I also offered to talk directly to them but they have refused. Given the nature of their campaign particularly at the moment, I begin to wonder, do they want the IRA to stop, have they some other reason for their existence but are able to use the IRA as their excuse. HUMPHRYS: Whatever Mr Major's motives may be for having concluded that you're... that the process is at an end, that you're involvement effectively with Gerry Adams is at an end. What about Mr Reynolds' motives, what possible reason might he have for agreeing with Mr Major that the Hume/Adams initiative is dead? HUME: Well I have no evidence from either of them, you know, that they are slamming the door on my initiative other than the statement that was issued which, if you read it, there's very little in it that you can object to or that I could object to, which commits them - the two governments - to an initiative and indeed that's what the last statement that Mr Adams and I issued asked them to do. They also in their statement say that my actions have been both courageous and imaginative but they're not paying attention to what's coming out of it. HUMPHRYS: You clearly don't believe that that statement, the Reynolds/Major statement goes far enough. HUME: Well I'm not saying that, I'm saying that I'm available. HUMPHRYS: John Hume. ...oooOooo...