............................................................................... JOHN HUME INTERVIEW RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION: BBC-1 DATE: 17.10.93 ............................................................................... SHEENA MCDONALD: And, listening to that interview and the previous interview with Gerry Adams is the co-author with Mr Adams of the joint statement on the way ahead for Ulster, now before the Dublin Government: John Hume, the Leader of the Social Democratic and Labour Party - Good Afternoon. JOHN HUME MP: Good Afternoon. MCDONALD: Now, much of interest - I'm sure you'd like to comment on there. You have been working for twenty-five years to end the troubles. For the last five years, we understand, you've been having some kind of talks with Gerry Adams. Now, it's in the open, you need everyone on board and already we've heard from Mr Molyneaux that he thinks the plan - and he seems to know what it is - is sheer lunacy. HUME: Well, in the first place, he doesn't know what the plan is. And it's quite evident from what he's saying that he hasn't a clue because Mr Adams and I have not agreed a plan to impose on anyone because we don't believe that a solution can be imposed. What we are talking about - and we've made it very clear - and all we have done, repeatedly - and I have done repeatedly - I've asked people to read what we have said. And we're talking about a peace process which involves both governments and all Parties and that the objective of that peace process is agreement among the divided people of this island. An agreement which must earn the allegiance and agreement of all our traditions. Now, why doesn't Mr Molyneaux address that? Our problem here in Northern Ireland, you see, is that - and it's the same where there's conflict in different parts of the world - there are two mind sets. There's a Unionist mind set and the Nationalist mind set. Right. The Unionist mind set has been: the only people we can trust are ourselves; the only way to protect ourselves is to hold all power in our own hands and exclude everybody else. MCDONALD: And the National mind set? HUME: I'll come to that in a moment. The Unionists have always done that, they're still doing it in Local Government and my appeal to them is: Look, I recognise your wish to protect your identity, I respect that because we must respect our differences if we're going to solve this problem. Victories and defeat won't work. But, there is another way which doesn't involve excluding everybody else. The Nationalist mind set is a territorial mind set, which also exists in other areas of conflict. This is our land. We're a majority and you're a minority and, therefore - and of course, my argument about that, consistently, has been that it's not about territory, it's about people. Without people it's only a jungle and it's the people of this land who are divided and they can't be brought together by any form of coercion. It can only be done by agreement. Now, Mr Adams and myself have declared that what we are seeking is a process involving both governments, all Parties, whose objective is agreement among the divided people that earns the loyalty and allegiance of all. Now, could somebody please tell me what's wrong with that, particularly after the twenty years of what our people have been through,
if that process leads to a total cessation of all violence? MCDONALD: Now, well, you have described the joint statement, which you and Mr Adams have made. Of course we're operating without actually knowing the proposals which you have forwarded to the Dublin Government and I don't know whether there is any more to those proposals than that statement. HUME: We have not - we have not forwarded
proposals for a solution in terms of institutions, or anything like that. All that speculation is nonsense. MCDONALD: So, can we - can we deal specifically.. HUME: What we are talking about are the principles - the broad principles - and our statement says it - which ought to govern any approach to a solution - who should be involved: both Governments and all Parties. What's the objective? Agreement among the divided people that earns the allegiance of everybody. MCDONALD: Can we deal with that suspicion or- HUME: Yes. MCDONALD: -knowledge that Mr Molyneaux has that there is a proposal that in a generation's time - he said in twenty-five to thirty years - British troops will withdraw from Northern Ireland. And, from Day One that would be an element of the plan, once it is revealed. And, he said, of course, we can't go with that and it would lead to violence. Now can you deny, or confirm, that that is an element of what's on the table? HUME: Well, well, in the first place, we have no specific proposals for solutions on the table but what our objective is is a total cessation of all violence. And, my assumption is if there's a total cessation of paramilitary violence on our streets that the troops would be off the streets within a very short time. And I think the whole community would want that as well. And indeed the British Government have already said to the IRA in statements: it's you who are keeping us on the streets here; if your campaign ceases, we'll be off the streets. MCDONALD: So, withdrawal is a part of your process towards an agreement. HUME: No, no. An end of all violence on our streets - an end of paramilitaries and an end of troops on our streets and, then, both Governments and all Parties sit down and reach an agreement to end this quarrel once and for all. And, by the way, I do think - and, this is very relevant - that in today our quarrel's out of date. I've said that repeatedly. I think that there's a better atmosphere for resolving our differences now because the nature of the Irish problem has actually changed. MCDONALD: Then, why is it not possible for the IRA to initiate that cessation of violence, call a ceasefire and make it a permanent one? As Seamus Mallon has said it: it doesn't have to be written down, he says. It doesn't have to be spoken but silence the guns, silence the bomb and let that silence start now. HUME: Well, we've had violence and very serious violence and myself and my Party have been in the frontline against that violence for twenty years and have been attacked - our homes by both sides. And, our objective is a total cessation of violence. What I'm saying about the changed nature is very significance. In this sense is that, originally, the 'Irish problem', as it was called and, indeed 'the British presence' as it's called in Ireland, was due to Ireland's links with Europe. The coming in here and the Plantation of Ulster was England's reaction to the links with Spain. The Act of Union was England's reaction to the links with France. Ireland was the back door for England's European enemies. That's all gone in the new Europe of today. So the basis of the problem, in traditional Nationalist terms - in my opinion - has changed but the legacy remains. The legacy is that we're a deeply divided people and that can only be solved by agreement and what we need is the commitment of everybody - both Governments and all Parties - to reach an agreement. And, listening to Mr Molyneaux, I wonder does he want to reach agreement. He says, for example: Northern Ireland is one people. If that's so, why does his Party exclude the minority from everything when they're in power? MCDONALD: Well, we'll come on to that but.. HUME: But, but I'm saying to the Unionist people very clearly: your real strength is your numbers and your geography. I've said it repeatedly. This problem can't be solved without you. We are a divided people and difference is normal, difference is not something - it exists all across the world - that we should be fighting about. We should be accommodating our differences, respecting our differences, reach agreement and, then, work together to build this country. MCDONALD: But until you got over the obstacle,
which is the continuing IRA campaign of violence, that process cannot begin. Now, would it not be helpful to be able to do that? For the IRA to begin that process, not as a gesture of goodwill but an actual act? HUME: I would like the IRA never to have started. I mean I've been opposing violence throughout but the objective of what I am now doing and I am doing it by just..by direct dialogue. I have twelve thousand people in my Constituency who vote for Sinn Fein and their support for the armed struggle. So, I have a responsibility to do all in my power and the least I should do is talk. But this dialogue - and, I've said it publicly and I don't make idle remarks - is the best hope of lasting peace that I have seen in twenty years. And, lasting peace means a total cessation of all violence. And, all I have asked - and, given what we've all been through in this community - it's not too much to ask people to suspend their judgement until they see the outcome. And, I think, that a..any responsible political leader in this society, who really wants to see lasting peace, would suspend judgement until they saw the outcome. MCDONALD: You say you can't tell whether Mr Molyneaux really does want any kind of agreement. Now, of course, Mr Molyneaux represents people who vote for the Union and what the Unionists fear is that your plan, or your proposals, will eventually mean the end of the Union. They don't want that - are they right? HUME: Well, what I have said and I've said it repeatedly - I'm talking about my Party now - that, you know, this problem could only be solved by agreement among our divided people. The Unionists have agreed and the British Government have agreed and the Irish Government have agreed, that this problem, in order to solve it, we have to solve not just the relations within Northern Ireland but the relations within Ireland and between Britain and Ireland. And, the central relationship - which is very obvious - the reason the Unionists overthrew Home Rule by force against the Sovereign wish of the British Parliament in 1912, the vehicle used by force, was because of their fear of links with the rest of the island. The reason they excluded the minority from any say in Northern Ireland during their seventy years of one-Party rule was for the same reason. The reason they opposed the Sunningdale Agreement and overthrew it by force was for the same reason. The reason they're against the Anglo-Irish Agreement is for the same reason. Therefore, until their relationship with the rest of the people of this island is sorted out to their agreement as well as the rest of us, nothing is going to work. MCDONALD: To their agreement? HUME: Their agreement, of course. We must- I mean- We must reach agreement and if that agreement- If we can't reach agreement in today's world, where all of the rest of Europe- by the way, we've reached agreement with the French and the Germans, as to how we live together, as to how we even run our farms; why can't we reach agreement with one another as to how we share a piece of earth? MCDONALD: You say the people of Northern Ireland must agree. Now when they hear Gerry Adams on this programme saying that if they decide that they would like their territory to be run in such and such a way there is no veto, that their consent is not, is not meaningful in the way they would like it to be meaningful. How can they move forward with your proposals? HUME: No. I think you're confusing this veto question. The Unionists have in the past always exercised two vetos - a veto on British policy. Now, the part of the United Kingdom - the two per cent - they don't have the right to veto the views of the British people, as a whole. They've done that twice in this century by force. In 1912 and again in the Seventies against the Sunningdale Agreement. The second veto they've had - they don't have a right to that veto. The British people have a right to decide themselves what policies they want to pursue and the Unionists have an input into that. The second veto that they have is on the relationships with the people that they live with on this island. That's a natural one. That one can only be solved by agreement. What I want to see is everybody, including the British Government and the Irish Government and all Parties, committing themselves to reaching agreement on ALL of the three relationships that go to the heart of this problem. And, if that commitment brings an end to all violence, then, the real task is everybody round that table. And, it won't be easy. But, the fact that it will be taking place in an atmosphere of peace,
after our twenty years, the pressures will be on everybody not to go back to those trenches that we're in at the moment. MCDONALD: But further to your initiative - assuming that it gets somewhere, assuming that violence stops and it does proceed - central to that will be that the people of Northern Ireland will determine how they are governed in future? HUME: There is no question, in my mind, that any agreement that emerges on these relationships must be agreed by the people. I mean, read the statement - the Gerry Adams - read the two statements. The first statement which everybody - not everybody, but the people who didn't want to agree with him. The people of Ireland as a whole have a right to self-determination. But the statement - that's the bit they all seized on - the bit- the statement went on to admit that not everybody agreed with that; in other words, that the people of Ireland are divided on how the right is to be exercised. And, we said it's agreement and the means of reaching it that we are discussing. In our second statement, we translate that clearly to say we're talking about a peace process involving both Governments and all Parties, whose objective must be AGREEMENT between the divided people of this island, an agreement which must earn the allegiance and loyalty of all our traditions. Now, in the past talks, for example - and you asked Mr Molyneaux about this. MCDONALD: I want to talk about the future because we only have a couple of minutes. HUME: Oh yeah. It's the future I'm talking about - lasting peace here. MCDONALD: We need to talk about the future because there is an agreement. There is the Anglo-Irish Agreement, which may be dishonoured by some and honoured by others but there it is in place. Now, it is, perhaps, not so much the Unionists that you need to persuade or bring on board but it is the British Government who need to be brought on board. As far as I know, it is not formally before the Muir Initiative but it will be. Now, is this really the time when this kind of initiative is going to be favoured over other ideas - the blueprint for stability that Mr Molyneaux is offering, which he's very confident about, he says it does represent the views of all people of Northern Ireland. Why will this Government not favour his idea over your idea, which is already carrying disfavour and anxiety among many constituencies. HUME: Well, in the first place, I would have thought that lasting peace and a total cessation of violence is something everybody wants to happen. They want it to happen immediately, and the quicker that both Governments assess it, in my opinion, the better, and I have no doubt about that because that's an essential part of any process that's going to ...to lasting stability and an essential part of it also is that both Governments and all parties be involved in reaching agreement, and I hope I don't have to spell out to people what the word "agreement" means, and I know that the ordinary Unionist people on the ground, because I'm getting it from them all the time, want my process to succeed, and they know that the problem can't be solved without them, neither can it solved without the rest of the people. MCDONALD: Thank you. ...oooOooo...