................................................................................ ON THE RECORD INTERVIEW WITH SIR NORMAN FOWLER MP RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 1.5.94 ................................................................................ SHEENA MCDONALD: Now, lots to talk about, leadership challenges, local elections, but let's start where that film left off, with your people down in the South West. Margaret Daly has a problem, she's looking for a positive assertive campaign, she's hearing negative campaigning and it's of course because there is this division in the Party which means there is nothing to unite on. SIR NORMAN FOWLER MP: Well I don't agree with that and I don't incidentally agree that I wish to finish the job, what I want to do is to fight these elections and to fight them successfully, and that's what we'll do. As far as a positive campaign is concerned, I think your introduction is also inaccurate about the Conservative Party Manifesto. There hasn't been a division on the Conservative Party Manifesto. MCDONALD: We'll come on to the Manifesto... FOWLER: Ok, but it's an important point. I hope you will come back to it. MCDONALD: We certainly will, but I'd like to address Margaret Daly's point, because she's worried she's not getting the support she needs, she's hearing negative campaigning. FOWLER: Well I don't think that that is the case
and in, and it's very difficult to divide the Manifesto from what she's saying, but in the build-up to this campaign we have made it absolutely clear that this will be a positive campaign. I know what Margaret Daly's concerns are, she's expressed them to me, she's expressed them to others as well. We have had and we have involved the MEPs in the European Campaign and we will continue to do so. And therefore, we of course will be fighting a positive campaign. What we will be fighting however, is a campaign which seeks to set out the differences between where we stand, how we see Europe, and how the other parties see Europe. That really is the battlefield. The battlefield is not internal position of Conservative Party, the battlefield is between how we see Europe in a decentralised free enterprise way, and in the centralised way in which both the Labour Party and the Liberal Party see it. MCDONALD: But what voters are seeing this week is exactly the battlefield you're saying is not though, which is the one within the Conservative Party, and it's being see by your colleagues. I mean Douglas Hurd last week was giving a few hometruths to the Euro-sceptics, who he said were out of touch, in fact indeed last month, you remember when he talked to Conservative Central Council, and I'll quote, he talked about the "sour and defensive attitude which concentrates exclusively on the negative things about Europe". It's not just Margaret Daly it certainly isn't me, it's the Foreign Secretary who see a split. FOWLER: With respect, I mean both the Foreign Secretary and I went to a backbench meeting, it has been reported. That meeting consisted of all sides in the European argument, and I think what the Foreign Secretary has said, and which...why I would entirely confirm, is that the message that came out of that is what the party wants to do, is to unite to fight a strong campaign on Europe, and above all to get the central differences between the parties. I'm sorry to come back to this all the time, but you see when you listen, when you watched that film it is quite clear that what the Liberal Democrats don't want is that it should be fought on the issues of Europe. What we want is to expose the issues of Europe. The Labour regulations for example, the Social Chapter, which we've got a recovery taking place in this country, a very good recovery, the kind of issues, the kind of things that the Liberal Democrats stand for, the Social Chapter adding costs to business and industry, would stop that kind of recovery stone dead. MCDONALD: Now, I'm sure you do want to present a positive campaign, but in fact what is coming across is this division in the party. Michael Heseltine this week, after the meeting that you and Douglas Hurd held with the backbenchers, no doubt hoping to pre-empt what has happened in the last week, said "the country is reeling with amazement at the internecine, the fighting that's going on over Europe in this last week". FOWLER: Well I don't think that Michael is seeking to indicate that there's kind of..there's a gteat internecine of kind of attack and counter attack, taking place. I think that what he is saying, what Gillian Shephard is saying, what I am saying, is that what we need to do is to get together, and we need to focus our attention and our fire on the othersides. MCDONALD: Well we'll come on to what Gillian Shephard's saying, but you have been saying this for a long time, but it does suggest, it does indicate what we have seen, which there is this split in the Tory Party on Europe is there, it's drastic and it's unbridgeable, there is no manifesto campaign, there is no manifesto, there's no campaign that Margaret Daly at the moment can work with. FOWLER: Well I don't think that's true of Margaret Daly, and I also don't think that, I man I think you've got to be fair on this, you see you've got papers like the Times. "The Tories Redraft Euro Poll Manifesto". That is the lead story, anti Federalists claim two hundred MPs support looser ties with Brussels. MCDONALD: I'm glad you brought that up, that's two hundred..... FOWLER: Well that you see, that is., but (a) that is inaccurate, it doesn't even, it isn't even justified by the story, but the Tories redrafting the Euro Poll Manifesto, is simply not the case. I have been in the Manifesto committee, I have been in it throughout and of course a manifesto goes through the natural stages, but there hasn't been a division on that. And I do think, you talk about divisions in the Conservative Party, I do think it is fair to acknowledge this, that there are a number of newspapers, not the press generally, but there are a number of specific newspapers, and The Times is one of those newspapers, that is campaigning, if you like, on a Euro-sceptic manifesto, they have been doing that, that is their right, it is entirely up to them what they campaign on, but their news...their views are now being expressed in their news columns. I do think it's fair and sensible that the public should understand that. MCDONALD: It's not my task to defend any newspaper, althoughy notably all the Sunday papers which traditionally support the Tory Party, are taking a Euro-sceptic line today as well. However, let's look at the manifesto, now you say it's being redrafted. FOWLER: No I say it's not being redrafted, that exactly the point I don't make there, it's not being redrafted, all that's taking, all that has taken place is that any manifesto goes through a number of stages, but it isn't being redrafted in the sense that one, which is what The Times have alleged, which is one draft has been thrown away, get on with it, Prime Minister rejects the draft. Let's get on and produce another one. MCDONALD: Let's leave aside the definition of what draft means. Teresa Gorman and Bill Cash hope that it is going to be more Europ-sceptical in hue, can you confirm that they are right in their hopes? FOWLER: Well I don't know what that means, I mean what we will set out, and I don't know what the question means, what we will set out is where the Conservative Party stands on Europe. The argument is not whether we are in Europe or out of Europe, we're obviously in Europe, we're in Europe. The argument is, the debate is, what kind of Europe that we want, that is the central debate. And the point is that the Conservative Party stands for a very distinctive view of Europe, not internally but between us and the Liberal Party. We want a decentralised Europe, we want a free enterprise Europe, we want a deregulated Europe, that is the kind of Europe that we're standing for and I think that John Major has had a tremendous amount of success in selling that concept to the rest of Europe. MCDONALD: Let me try answering the question differenty, is the manifesto being whatever you might say, fine tuned in a way that will be more acceptable to Bill Cash, Teresa Gorman and their suppoprters, you say that there are not two hundred MPs who want looser ties, I don't know what figure you would put on it, but the number of people, the substantial number of people in your party. FOWLER: No, no that is an allegation by one of the people, one of our MPs who just takes..happens to take a different view, I don't know of any scientific or any other process whereby he gets to that particular figure. MCDONALD: Let's stick with Teresa Gorman and Bill Cash, who of course hoped to have some input in this process after the Maastrich vote last summer, now will this manifesto be more acceptable to them, following the fine tuning it's going through, or whatever you would call it? FOWLER: Well I hope very much that the manifesto will unite indeed the Tory Party but that has been the aim throughout the whole process and there has been no change in what we've been saying in the basic message that has been set out throughout the whole process of the manifesto. It obviously is intended to be a manifesto which the whole of the party - the overwhelming majority of the party - can get behind and which we can take the battle to Labour and the Liberals on issues like the Social Chapter. MCDONALD: Let's look at specifics, what does it say about European Monetary Union? FOWLER: Well, what it says on that, I mean we've already published what it said on the single currency and the European monetary union we've actually published that in the document that has taken place and this is really saying that this isn't...this is not an issue for now it will be an issue for the future and we have got the ability to be able to decide for ourself what that future is going to be. If you mean the single currency for example that is the future that we have a decision on. MCDONALD: Well the reason I ask is because Michael Portillo, as you know has been talking about it already today, this morning, and he says a single currency means the end of UK Government. Now, that...is not at all government policy, whatever you have published so far is it, I mean there is actually an opt-out or an opt-in provision. FOWLER: Yes, but I haven't seen the interview you're referring to. MCDONALD: I can quote to you, what I have just said is what Mr Portillo said this morning. FOWLER: The position is that this is not a decision that is remotely likely to take place over the next years and it is a decision for the future and that decision rests with the British Government, that is exactly what it is the Prime Minister has been able negotiate. MCDONALD: That's not what Mr Portillo said this morning, he said if we're dragged towards something we can't put up with, we have the right of veto, a single currency would lead to political union which would mean giving up the government of the UK, no British Government can..no British Government can give up the Government of the UK. In other words he is saying, EMU is simply an non-starter now...forget.... FOWLER: I haven't seen the interview so there's no point in going into the detail on that, but it seems to me that the kind of points that Michael is putting are very similar to the kind of points that we're already set out in the campaign itself. MCDONALD: But you did hear Leon Brittan saying that a single currency was possible by 1999, in his view, whereas Michael Howard said he didn't think that any move, any significant move towards it would be within his politial career. Now assuming he's not telling us something about how long he expects to be in politics this seems to be a division there as well. FOWLER: I don't think..I don't...I actually don't think it's an issue over the next years. We've made that clear, we've set that out and as I say at the end of the day it is a decision for the British Government. MCDONALD: It's only two years til the next IGC, when this is going to be debated, the debate is there, people are talking about looser ties with Europe, Michael Portillo appears to allying himself with people who go that way, that does not seem to be, as I understand it, the government line at the moment, and Maastricht has been signed with the clause the Prime Minister negotiated, there is a division on how we progress there. FOWLER: I don't think, I think that that's wrong, I mean the division, I keep on coming back to this point, the real division upon Europe, not the kind...the points that you put to me, the real division are the fundamental divisions, the fundamental division between how we the Conservative Party view Europe. We view it as a de-centralised Europe, as a series of sovereign states, with coming together obviously on issues of common concern, that is very different from the kind of Europe that the Labour Party and the Liberal Party are standing for. That is the real truth and Michael Portillo, Michael Howard, myself and all the Tory Party would actually stand by that kind of concept. The Social Chapter, for example, which both the other parties, I mean these are big divisions, these are not nit-picking things, these are really major divisions. The Social Chapter, which would add costs to industry, which would add costs to business, which would add and lose jobs and which would in my view destory the recovery which is taking place in this country. Those are the real issues.... MCDONALD: But, what could be more fundamental than whether or not Britain is in or out of the European Union. Now, when Teresa Gorman asked the Prime Minister in the Commons this week whether he endorsed the speech that Lord Young made to the Institute of Directors where he said: Europe was a waste of time, he said. The best thing the IGC in 1996 could do was make a bonfire of the directive. 1996 is our last opportunity to-to wake up
before the world passes. In other words, to get out. Now, the Prime Minister signally failed to refute any of that and, basically, said: yes - he agreed. FOWLER: But, the Prime Minister. I mean, I don't think anyone has yet interpreted it as meaning the Prime Minister wishes to refer...wishes to withdraw from the European Union, which he most clearly doesn't. MCDONALD: You're a politician, Sir Norman. FOWLER: No, no..... That's a perfectly straightforward statement of fact. I don't know- I don't think David Young, actually, wants to do that. What the Prime Minister was agreeing with in David Young's speech was, again, the point that I'm actually trying to put to you on the Social Chapter and on the internal regulations which is: that what you mustn't be is an internal-looking community. What it must remember and take cognisance of is that it is going to face competition from outside the Pacific Rim, something which David Young specifically referred to. So, what the Prime Minister was saying - which is entirely what the Party says - is that is really what we should have account of. What we cannot have is a sort of internal looking club which doesn't take any regard of what's taking part in the rest of the world. And, therefore, if you put regulations, Labour restrictions - the kind of thing, again, that the Labour Party and the Liberal Party actually want to impose. If you put that on your European economy, the British economy, then, that is going to have an impact and it is going to have a very bad impact on jobs, business and industry in this country. MCDONALD: Lord Young's speech - and, I don't know if you read it, or heard it - was the most Euro-sceptical speech you can give. He said 1996 will extend the good Brussels principles of equal misery. Otherwise know as harmonisation. What people heard in the Commons on Thursday in Prime Minister's Question Time was the Prime Minister failing to refute the gist of that argument. FOWLER: No, you know, I-I-I dispute that. MCDONALD: Now, it sounds as if he is appeasing the sceptics in the Party. FOWLER: No, no, no. MCDONALD: The only way of uniting the Party is by giving to the sceptics because- FOWLER: No. I mean, David Young must speak for himself, on what he means by his speech. I mean, I remember David Young when he was taking us in and campaigning to kind of go in to the Single Market. MCDONALD: Let's stick with the Prime Minister's response to the question. FOWLER: And-and - well- MCDONALD: Teresa Gorman, arch Euro-sceptic, and he did not refute the point. FOWLER: Well, he did but-but you-what you're saying - and, I think, it's not a sensible point, if you don't mind me saying so - what you're trying to indicate is that some-some way the Prime Minister wishes, to, actually, withdraw us from the European Union. MCDONALD: I'm trying to- FOWLER: I think, that is not the case but the point that John Major was agreeing with - in that exchange - was the point that David Young did make inter alia in his speech, which is: that we mustn't be an inward-looking community, we must be an outward-looking community. That is what Conservative policy is. It's always been Conservative policy. MCDONALD: The point I'm making is that the Prime Minister appears to be trying to appease the sceptics when he talks about himself - not as a Euro enthusiast, not as a Euro sceptic but as a Euro realist. Now, you know when the term was first used. It was used by Bill Cash on September the twenty-third 1992, when he set up his group. Euro realist is a-is a sceptic's term. FOWLER: Now, well, I don't think it is a sceptic's term. I think- I mean, what John Major wants to achieve, what the Government wants to achieve as far as Europe is concerned is the kind of things that I've been setting out. We've got a strong recovery, we've got low interest rates in this country, we've got low inflation. What we wish to do is for that recovery to continue. What we wish to do is to have a Britain in Europe and a Europe itself which looks outwards to the rest of the world, that takes account of the fact that you can't be an inward looking club. You've got to look out to the other competition that there is. That is the realism that the Prime Minister is talking about and that is important that he- that that message gets over because that is, actually, what we are fighting for. And, I think, we are making quite a lot of progress in Europe in getting that concept over. And, as someone who spents some of my life in business and industry, I do have to tell you that that is of crucial importance to business and industry in this country. If we have the kind of inward looking regulation-making Europe of the Labour Party and the Liberal Party, that will be devastating for British industry, that will be devastating for British jobs and it is something which on the issues - and, that is why the Liberal Democrats don't want us to go into the issues - that, on the issues, they will be defeated on. And, I believe, we stand and we have the support of the British public on that. MACDONALD: And, yet, Margaret Daly is confused. You see, we listen to Mr Major. Two conferences ago, he tells us he's the greatest Euro sceptic. One conference ago, he tells us that Britain should be at the heart of Europe. Now, he tells us he's a Euro realist and you've given a definition of that. Bill Cash has his definition of that. It seems to me - I mean, I-my father tells me that when he was in the Army there was a word for this and it's 'two-timing' and what happens to two-timers is that both partners drop them.
We're seeing a man trying to please everybody and effectively pleasing nobody, and certainly not the people who were tapping on the doors in the South West trying to hang on to their seats. FOWLER: I don't think that's remotely accurate, I think that's a grotesquely unfair description. What I would say about the Prime Minister - and I've served with the Prime Minister, I served with him during the election campaign and I've served with him since that - what the Prime Minister has done is that he has taken this country from the position where we had a recession, he has taken it to a position now where we have recovery, where we have unemployment coming down, where we have low inflation which he's had to fight for, where we've got low interest rates, where we've got the greatest growth inside Europe, inside the European Community. I think rather than actually making those kind of generalised allegations which you've just repeated, I think you should look at the record of the man, the courage of the man and the guts of the man. MCDONALD: Don't... FOWLER: And I really do think it is about time that the discussion and the debate upon the Prime Minister and upon his position began to recognise the achievements and the record and what he has done for this country and for this Party and if you want something on the Party, just let us remember that as far as the Party is concerned, as far as Margaret Daly is concerned, as far as all our Members of Parliament in Westminster are concerned, John Major was the man who won us the 1992 election when all the media - doubtless including programmes like this - were telling us we were going to lose. MCDONALD: So why don't you, as Margaret Daly suggests, tell the doubters to shut up? I mean why is it that Gillian Shephard can say last night that only eighty per cent of the Parliamentary Party wants the Prime Minister and the government to succeed. She's calling on the active campaigners, she says, on behalf of potential rivals, so they may not know they have these campaigns, they should call their dogs off. If they realise it she has now told them that there is.. the canvassing is going on, there is a ghost leadership challenge happening and the Prime Minister cannot depend on the hundred per cent support of the Parliamentry party.. from according to somebody who claims to support him. FOWLER: As I saw- as I watched your programme, as I watched your news, before this programme itself I saw Gillian say that there was a small handful, I think, was the phrase that she used, inside the party. Well that may or may not be true, but the other side of that coin is that the overwhelming majority of the Conservative Party, whether it be in Parliament, whether it be in the country, are solidly behind the Prime Minister, are solidly behind his position as far as Europe is concerned and as far as the goverment is concerned. MCDONALD: But she said last night that twenty per cent of the Parliamentry Party.. FOWLER: Well you're putting it the other way round, I mean what she said was eight out of ten didn't she and in fact what she also said there was that it was, and I quote "a small handful". I think the small handful is the better description. MCDONALD: But if two out of ten don't support the Prime Minister... FOWLER: But the other side of that coin is surely that the overwhelming majority of the party are behind John Major. And I go back to this point, the point is that, please, why don't we all, why doesn't the media, why doesn't, you know in an interview like this, why don't we go on to the issues, why don't we go on to the policies, why don't we go on to what John Major has achieved for this country? And I think that when history is written on this period the fact that he has brought this country through.. out of recession into the strongest growth position in Europe - I think that will be regarded by the historians and I think should be regarded by some of the commentators now, as a tremendous achievement as far as the Prime Minister himself is concerned. MCDONALD: The media is bound to report on a senior cabinet minister to suggest that two out of ten out of the Parliamentary Party cannot support the Prime Minister and also confirms that there is a leadership challenge going on, and that there are two different campaigns being waged in the lobbies at this moment. Now telling me is one thing, but you should be telling your people. FOWLER: No-one's every accused me of not telling my people. MCDONALD: They don't listen. FOWLER: Precisely those points. But we are talking about a small handful. As far as the leadership campaigns are concerned, I mean you know, I heard what Richard Ottaway said who was fingered by one of the newspapers a week or so ago about this and what Richard said - who is Michael Heseltine's PPS - is that he wants John Major as Prime Minister, he wants John Major to lead us into the next election and he wants John Major as Prime Minister in the year 2000. MCDONALD: Of course. FOWLER: And Richard, and I speak from experience as a friend and colleague of him, is speaking from the heart when he says that, so let us not exaggerate that particular issue. MCDONALD: Well now we're looking at two elections coming up. You've put the Prime Minister at the forefront of those campaigns.
All the predictions suggest that they are going to go very badly for the Conservatives and you have left the Prime Minister very exposed have you not? FOWLER: Well I think that that's a little unrealistic. I think that you would expect the Prime Minister to take a part and a good part in whether it's the local elections - particularly in the European elections - and that has always been his intention and he has actually written to constituencies to say precisely that particular point. You would expect, if we had not done that, what you would have said is that the Prime Minister goes to his bunker, the Party distances itself from the Prime Minister. Frankly at times there are some things that one cannot win, but I think that John Major leads from the front, he always has done and and he's had a tremendous record tremendous success in so doing. MCDONALD: Mr Norman Fowler, thank you for joining us this afternoon. FOWLER: Thank you.