................................................................................ ON THE RECORD EUROPE DISCUSSION RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 13.3.94 ................................................................................ JOHN HUMPHRYS: So gentlemen, let's look first of all at whether you're all in favour of enlargement. I take it the answer to that question is yes, but let's have it on the record anyway. Now Mr Townend, can you hear me alright? JOHN TOWNEND: .. that enlargement, because I see that enlargement as a way of weakening the centralism of the union. I'm one of those who doesn't want to see it proceed to become a federal united states of Europe. HUMPHRYS: Mr Carringon? MATTHEW CARRINGTON MP: I'm very much in favour of enlargement. HUMPHRYS: And Mr Newton-Dunn, you too, clearly? BILL NEWTON-DUNN MEP: I'm in favour. It brings in extra trade opportunities for the UK and it strengthens the family of democratic nations. It's a thoroughly good thing. HUMPHRYS: Alright, so you're all agreed on that, but now I suspect we get into the disagreement because it's a question of motives isn't it? Mr Townend, your reason for wanting enlargement you say, is so that it sort of weakens the central institutions effectively. TOWNEND: Well, yes, I think that we want to keep the same voting rights as we have at the moment. If we water them down it will mean that Brussels is able to impose their directives more easily upon us, and we could have a situation where forty-one per cent of the population of the community was, through their Governments - was oppossed to something, it could be enforced on them, and I think that is wrong. I think we want a widening, but I don't think we want a deepening, and we were given an undertaking by the Prime Minister after Maastricht that there would be no major changes before 1996, increasing the powers of the commission or the central union. HUMPHRYS: Mr Newton-Dunn? NEWTON-DUNN: Well, John Townend made a very good and important point, that four small countries are going to join, the Scandinavians
and the Austrians are all small, and there is a potential imbalance between eleven small countries and only five large ones. HUMPHRYS: Because the system is weighted in favour of the smaller countries? NEWTON-DUNN: Absolutely. And I do think there's an important point, we should actually look whether it's possible for the small countries to outvote the five big ones. The mathematics does need to be looked at again. HUMPHRYS: But your motive for wanting enlargement
is very different to Mr Townend's. NEWTON-DUNN: I didn't hear any difference when we both replied to your question. HUMPHRYS: Well, what Mr Townend is saying is that he wants the central institutions effectively to be weakened. You don't agree with that? NEWTON-DUNN: I want things - decisions to be able to be made. The one thing that we've got to bear in mind is if we try and strengthen Britain's vetoing ability it allows every other country to veto more effectively as well. It's not a personal vote for Britain this, and all the things that we want to push through creating a single market, making more of a level playing field, bringing in more competition could be more easily blocked if we allow other countries to have too much of a veto as well. There's a balance here that we've got to strike. HUMPHRYS: But as far as you're concerned mr Carrington, speaking as it were on behalf of the Government? CARRINGTON: Oh, far be from me to speak on behalf of the Government. HUMPHRYS: But you are a member of the Government in a junior capacity. CARRINGTON: Well, hardly, but yes. HUMPHRYS: But that's your position as well, broadly, that's to say - you have a slight problem here don't you, because you accept Mr Townend's view that you're on these terms, you don't want enlargement to go ahead, but you do want enlargement to go ahead. CARRINGTON: No, we want - I certainly want enlargement to go ahead whatever happens. I think enlargement is a desirable goal in itself and is something which is important for the reasons that John has said and the reasons that Bill has said. It's important for trade, it's important for the development of the community, it's important for Europe. It's got a philosophical as well as an economic and political base. HUMPHRYS: But you will block it if it means going from twenty-three votes to twenty-seven votes? CARRINGTON: No, you've got to see all this in context. I mean - yes there is a big problem over this at the moment, but the context of all this is not only the people who are coming in - the countries that are coming in now. It's the future enlargement after that, it's the bringing in of the east European countries into the EC. HUMPHRYS: Yes, but you're jumping ahead a step aren't you. You've got to get over next Tuesday first. CARRINGTON: Well, we've got to get over next Tuesday, but in fact all these decisions are going to come back to us in 1996 with the renegotiation that's going to come of the Maasricht Treaty and the whole progression forward. HUMPHRYS: Yes. CARRINGTON: The present voting arrangements can't go on - I mean it's a nonsense having small countries having a disproportionate say in what happens with big rights. HUMPHRYS: So this is why on Tuesday Britain will be voting against something of which it is basically in favour? CARRINGTON: Britain will be saying that things should stay as they are in terms of the waiting which allows the large countries .... HUMPHRYS: They can't. CARRINGTON: ... at the moment not to be dominated too much by the small countries. HUMPHRYS: But they can't. You heard what Mr Brok said. CARRINGTON: Well, I think we're playing a bit of brinksmanship all round. I think everybody is and I think that everybody's in favour of enlargement, but we're - it's tough politics, we've learnt this from the French. You know in the European community the way the French operate is very subtle diplomacy, a few rioting farmers, and very very tough politics. They'll win. HUMPHRYS: But it's not very subtle or indeed very tough if you're sitting here now on Sunday morning saying "We may change our mind by next Tuesday". CARRINGTON: I'm not saying we going to change our mind by next Tuesday. I think this is something which we are very determined to stick to. HUMPHRYS: Well, in that case Mr Newton-Dunn, if it's something to which the Government sticks, then you have a problem don't you? NEWTON-DUNN: I'd like to wait and see what emerges. I know that the best brains in Brussels are looking at this problem. I'm sure that the cabinet and the Government are looking at it. There are different formulae that can be arrived at, and I agree it may look like a confrontation today, but this is how Europe works. We always work in negotiation going right to the edge. As Matthew said, the French are past masters at it. Something will emerge I'm - this will not block Europe. HUMPHRYS: But if push comes to shove what you're saying is, we have to go with this twenty seven, we have to go with this rule change, because that after all is what the treaty says. NEWTON-DUNN: Yes, in my opinion the most important criterion is what is best for Britain. To actually be thrown out because nobody else agreed with us would be a disaster. We have to stay and we have to fight our corner very hard indeed. A lot of work behind the scenes in the next forty-eight hours, but we'll stay in. HUMPHRYS: What do you say to that Mr Townend? TOWNEND: Well, there's no question of it being thrown out. They can't throw us out undr the Treaty of Rome. I agree with Matthew, this is an occasion when we've got to face down those who oppose us in the union, because there's no doubt about it at all, there might be a small delay, but the Euro-federalists who dominate political and bureaucratic circles in Europe, they want enlargement to go ahead. I think if we stick to our guns we'll probably achieve our objective. HUMPHRYS: And you will stick to your guns as you put it, even if that means losing enlargement, or at least putting it back a year, which is what's going to happen if you don't get an agreement on Tuesday. TOWNEND: Well, I think we've got to be prepared to do that, because we're going into the European elections and we want to go into the European elections as a united party and it's based on the fact of the success that the Government had in Maastricht with subsidiarity knocked out, and no further moves to a more federal, more centralised Europe, and therefore that - it's important and vital that we don't change the voting arrangements. HUMPHRYS: But it's going to make Britain look pretty stupid isn't it. I mean Douglas Hurd is on record often enough and so is the Prime Minister, as saying enlargement is absolutely essential. This is the way Europe must head. TOWNEND: We all agree with that, but we ... HUMPHRYS: Well, you're telling me that you're prepared to see it go down the tubes in order to protect the existing system, and protect Britain's power. TOWNEND: Well, conversely you could say in that case the Germans and the French are prepared to see it go down the tube, because they want to water down the existing voting rights that we've got. As Matthew said, this is a question of brinkmanship. I think too often in the past we've gone up to the wire and then we've backed down and the French or the Germans have succeeded. It think this is the time that they've got to back down and we've got to make it clear that we're not going to see our voting rights watered down. HUMPHRYS: You go along with that Matthew Carrington. No backing down on this? CARRINGTON: I don't think theree's any backing down to be done. I think what we've got to do is find a way through it which keeps our national interests intact, and also developes the community, keeps everybody else's intact. HUMPHRYS: The question is how you define that? CARRINGTON: Well, the fundamental problem that we're talking about in all this is what sort of power should the very small countries have proportionate to the size they are inside the community. That's really what it comes down to, and this is what the voting's all about. At the moment the voting is skewed very heavily towards the small countries. We're adding a whole lot of small countries from Scandinavia. We're going to be adding more small countries in the future. Do we carry on allowing the small countries basically to dicatate to Germany, France, Italy, and Britain, and the answer is no, we can't, and that's a decision that's got to be taken now. It's not a decision that we can fudge. HUMPHRYS: And Mr Newton-Dunn, even if some sort of compromise, some sort of fudge is arrived at - and there have been one or two little fudges in the history of the European Community, or Union, as we must now call it - the European Parliament is not going to buy it, is it? NEWTON-DUNN: Let's wait and see. The European Parliament has a veto over enlargement. It has to muster a majority of its members in favour of each of the four countries. When we get asked ... we're given the package, we'll vote about it later on, perhaps in May before the elections, perhaps in the autumn. I can't possibly judge how the Parliament would look at the package as it emerges from the council of ministers. HUMPHRYS: It's made it pretty clear so far that there's no way it will accept any watering down. NEWTON-DUNN: Yes, but what we've just been saying John, is that a lot of negotiation is going on. This is a negotiation, a package will emerge. I am sure there will be a different formula, we don't know what it is today, and the Parliament will examine that new formula when it emerges. HUMPHRYS: You and your British colleagues are going to be a bit exposed in Strasbourg then, aren't you? NEWTON-DUNN: Not at all. European politics works all the time by compromises and explaining. Twelve nationalities working together. This is what we will be doing, as usual. HUMPHRYS: Are you happy, Mr Townend, to accept that sort of assurance from an MEP - albeit a Conservative MEP - when we've seen the way that the Parliament has overrided Britain's opt-out, for instance, on the Social Chapter? TOWNEND: No. I'm much more confident in Douglas Hurd fighting Britain's corner. I have to say that we have some difficulty in Europe because European Christian Democrats that are on the Right are very different to British Conservatives. But again, I think that the European Parliament are exercising brinkmanship and if the deal was agreed on Tuesday and this resulted in our voting rights not being watered down, I can't believe that the European Parliament would throw out enlargement on that. HUMPHRYS: So what sort of compromise would you buy? TOWNEND: Well I think this is one where there really is no compromise on offer because any compromise, as far as I could see, would weaken our ability as a nation to stop further Brussels directives which we thought were not in the interests of Britain, being imposed. HUMPHRYS: Well, so Mr Newton-Dunn, you say you can't see a lot of difference between you - there's a very clear difference there, isn't there? A senior member of your Party saying 'no compromise' but you and Mr Carrington ... NEWTON-DUNN: Actually, what John Townend said was he couldn't see one. We are all waiting to see what will emerge and there's a couple of days to go and we can't anticipate, we are not in the Government on this one. We will examine and John and Matthew and I will make our judgement on what the packages that emerge is. We can't see it. HUMPHRYS: To what extent, if at all, Mr Townend, does it bother you that we seem to be losing the battle - if I can put it in those dramatic terms, on the Social Chapter opt-out? TOWNEND: Well it certainly worries me very much and we've seen in recent weeks further burdens put on British industry which makes us, like our European friends, become less and less competitive with the rest of the world, particularly the Pacific basin and Japan and the USA. And this is why I think we mustn't have any watering down of our ability to prevent directives that we think are damaging to our industry being enforced on us and I think that two large countries and one small is the minimum that we should accept. HUMPHRYS: But it is happening isn't it? I mean, we are seeing things forced upon us. We have seen a couple this past week. TOWNEND: Well of course those of us who were against Maastricht have been worried about this. I sit on the council of Europe and it frightens me to death talking to European politicians, bureaucrats, because the whole of that class seems dedicated to the creation of a United States of Europe, a Federal United States of Europe, where more and more decisions are going to be taken in Brussels and Westminster's going to become more and more like a county council. HUMPHRYS: You shake your head at that, Mr Newton-Dunn. NEWTON-DUNN: Yes. John, you've made a fundamental mistake. These measures which have been in the papers the last few days are nothing to do with the Social Chapter. They're tabled under the single European Act 'health and safety measures'. HUMPHRYS: But does that matter? The effect is the same. We thought we had got all these opt-outs, we thought we could do our own thing and we find that we can't do our own thing - for whatever reason. NEWTON-DUNN: We didn't ask for an opt-out. When Mrs Thatcher was Prime Minister she did not ask for an opt-out on health and safety measures. The business about paper boys and girls and so on is a health and safety measure, not Social Chapter. HUMPHRYS: Does it matter to the paper boys and girls whether it's a health and safety measure or whether it's the result of an opt-out from the Social Chapter? I doubt whether they are discussing that as they go on their rounds and wonder whether they can deliver the papers on Sunday. NEWTON-DUNN: I entirely agree. I just wanted to put you right that we've actually got the right terminology. Our opt-out on the Social Chapter is still intact. That has been respected. We are exempt from those measures which will be coming. HUMPHRYS: Does that reassure you, John Townend? TOWNEND: No, I think that the Union are abusing health and safety to actually impose on us regulations which really should...they can't do under the Social Chapter. And I think that's worrying. HUMPHRYS: Matthew Carrington, you've got to get a...somehow or other you have got to get out of all this a manifesto that's going to appeal to these various bits and pieces in the Party. It's going to be a problem isn't it? CARRINGTON: No, I don't think so. I don't think at all it's going to be a problem. We've got a very clear position on Europe as the direction we want Europe to go into and the vision we have for Europe, which is one which I think is very popular and one which all of us - all three of us, from our different positions inside the Party - would unite on and agree on, which is that what we want is a Europe which is nation states coming together for their common good. HUMPHRYS: Gentlemen, thank you all very much indeed.