............................................................................... ON THE RECORD RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION: BBC-1 DATE: 17.10.93 ............................................................................... SHEENA MCDONALD: Good afternoon and welcome to On The Record, live from Belfast. It's almost twenty-five years since The Troubles began. Every peace initiative since then has failed. But, now, John Hume, the Leader of the Constitutional Nationalist Party, the SDLP; a politician who has spent the last quarter of a century trying to broker a peaceful solution believes he has a proposal which stands a chance. In today's programme, I'll be asking Gerry Adams, the President of Sinn Fein, and co-sponsor of those
proposals and the Ulster Unionist leader James Molyneaux if they can contemplate change in their positions. And, then, I'll be asking John Hume himself why he thinks his plan could succeed where all others have failed. ******* MCDONALD: Martha Kearney reporting. On Friday I spoke with Gerry Adams, the President of Sinn Fein, the political wing of the IRA. I began by suggesting to him that the Hume/Adams proposals would never get off the ground as long as the IRA continues its campaign of bombing and killing. In accordance with Government restrictions, Mr Adams words are spoken for him by an actor. GERRY ADAMS (ACTOR'S VOICE): Well, with respect and I mean, if you watch the news or if you've been here for a few days, you will see that the people who have been killing the most people have been the Loyalists. In the last few days a number of people have been killed purely because they are Catholics. You'll also see that the largest force in the situation, the British Army, remains in a very active role on the streets, like the one outside this building, so the IRA aren't the only element to this. There are a number of elements to it. MCDONALD: But your answer does not deny that the IRA is continuing to kill and bomb and have given no indication that they're going to stop. ADAMS (ACTOR'S VOICE): Well, I mean, I have to deal with it from where I come from, and from where I come from it's a recognition that we have a conflict of which the IRA is a part and that the various factions to the conflict, the British and their allies and the Loyalist death squads and the IRA are of course very active in their respective campaigns. That's why we need the initiative and that's why we need to move forward towards a peace process because we do have the conflict. MCDONALD: But for any forward movement to be possible it is clear from Westminster that there must be a cessation of violence, and not only from Westminster. Dick Spring has said that an end to IRA violence is a fundamental requirement for an environment where talk is possible to continue. Joe Hendron has said it's absolutely essential that a total end to violence takes place. Would you agree?. ADAMS (ACTOR'S VOICE): Well, of course we want to see, and I want to see, and Mr Hume and I have said that we are both agreed about the need to see, an end to all acts of violence. I want to see that. I mean there's no doubt at all about that. Our whole commitment is to bring that about. We seek to do that by a process which removes the causes of the conflict, and at some part of this initiative obviously the people involved in acts of violence have to cease. Now when they do that is a matter for themselves. I just think it's unfair and it's unrealistic and it disinforms your viewers if you only deal with one element of that. For my part, what I have said is that the primary function of Sinn Fein as a political party is to develop a peace strategy and I see that as my priority as the President of Sinn Fein and I'm prepared to go to the IRA and I'm prepared to put to the IRA a package of whatever we can put together and I'm prepared to make definitive proposals to the IRA in relation to whatever I see the situation and its potential. MCDONALD: Are you prepared to say to the IRA that the Sinn Fein will not win their place around the table for any potential process towards an agreement, towards a solid basis for peace, unless they, the IRA, stop their part in the violence? ADAMS (ACTOR'S VOICE): Well, I don't think there should be any preconditions placed upon Sinn Fein. Let me make that quite clear. Sinn Fein is NOT the IRA. Sinn Fein's stood - let me finish - Sinn Fein stood in elections and stands in elections here and receives a significant amount of support and our voters should have the same rights as the voters for any other party. Sinn Fein has suffered. Sinn Fein's a non-armed republican party and in the last year almost a dozen - the last two years - over thirteen of our people have been killed and scores have been injured, so Sinn Fein is involved in trying to move forward in an unarmed way and our voters deserve the same rights as the voters for any other party. MCDONALD: Which is why I framed my question as I did. If you are prepared to take a package to the IRA will you say to them that you Sinn Fein are unable to do any more to further the process that you want to see leading to an agreement towards peace unless they, the IRA, end the violence now. ADAMS (ACTOR'S VOICE): Well, let me go back to the process and the initiative Mr Hume and I .... MCDONALD: We will move on to that very shortly but it's quite an important point. ADAMS (ACTOR'S VOICE): I'm answering your question, if you'd let me please. And what I go to the IRA with depends on what comes out of this initiative and depends on what comes out of this process. Now what stage is it at, at the moment. It's at a stage where Mr Hume and I feel moved to make a report of the progress we have made to the Dublin Government and where we recognise that these murders are for consideration by both the London and Dublin Government, but must be in time for all the parties in this situation. Now arising out of that, arising out of that of course I will have to goto the IRA and make whatever presentation or representation I am going to make. What I say and how I say it depends on what is arising out of that situation. MCDONALD: Let's go on to talk about the proposals. We don't know what they are, we have an idea from statements made by the Dublin Government, which has given a cautious welcome to what they've seen of your proposal, and we know that there is a good chance that the British Government will get some kind of formal appraisal of it - there's the Anglo/Irish Conference coming up, there's the Brussels Summit at the end of this month - but it seems that you are possibly already pre-empting any progress on those proposals (we don't know what they are) by saying that Unionists have no veto, you said this recently. Can you clarify what you mean by that? ADAMS (ACTOR'S VOICE): Well I mean, it's long been the democratic position that Unionists should have no veto over the union, over British policy over the union, now I mean that has to be a democratic norm. If the people of the United Kingdom, for example, decided they wanted to end the connection with Ireland, are we suggesting that the Unionists would be able to veto that? MCDONALD: Well, let me present you with a hypothesis as to how things might progress towards peace in Ireland, in the two Irelands, the twenty-six counties and the six counties. ADAMS (ACTOR'S VOICE): There is only one Ireland if I may say so. MCDONALD: You may say so. There could be a dual referendum. It's been suggested, Mr. Reynolds has suggested it, where the peoples in the North and in the South would vote on their future. Now, if the people in Northern Ireland gave a majority vote to the status quo, you're saying that vote is invalid? ADAMS (ACTOR'S VOICE): Well I'm saying that the Unionists have no veto over British policy, however... MCDONALD: When you say the Unionists, do you mean the politicians or the people who vote for the Unionists? ADAMS (ACTOR'S VOICE): Well, I mean this State is a jerrymandered Statelet. This State was carved out by the British and the island of Ireland, the one Ireland, not two, the Ireland was partitioned in order to put into place an artificial majority, which would remain constantly loyal to the union. Now that's the jerrymandered mathematical definition which you are - at least some people - are referring to as being democratic. The last time there was a border poll here about this issue it was boycotted by the nationalists, quite rightly boycotted by the nationalists, because there could only be one result offered. Now let's not get too far up the road in terms of this process. The ways and means and formulations of working out how the people of Ireland will govern their selves is a matter for the people of Ireland. And it's also as John Hume and I pointed out in our joint statement, we need to agree on how we do that. Now the British Government are putting up propositions in which they are, in the words of Patrick Mayhew, referring to the self-determination, the national self-determination, of the people of this Statelet, and this Statelet has even been cut adrift from what...it's supposed to be part of the United Kingdom, and then when you buy a six county model, why not the people of Fermanagh, why not the people of Tyrone, why not the people of Derry or of West Belfast or of South Derry, and I put that forward not as a serious proposition but to show the absurdity of trying to advance democratically around an artificially created unit. Now, the fact is, the people of Britain, through their Government, I believe should be suing for peace. I believe that the Dublin Government should be meeting with the British Government to try andfind ways and means of finding peace. John Hume and I have put forward certain proposals. I firmly believe that all of the parties to the conflict should then be brought on board to try and agree on how we actually do this. MCDONALD: Well now you're looking a little way ahead, but given that what you have just said, that the people of Ireland have the right to determine how they should be governed. If the people of Northern Ireland in some future referendum, vote for the status quo, are you saying that that vote is invalid? ADAMS (ACTOR'S VOICE): Well, let us work the current process through, let us work through the process where John Hume and I have made certain proposals to the Dublin Government, which are for consideration by the British and Dublin Government. To date the British Government have been dismissive and arrogantly dismissive of this initiative. Now, they need to apply themselves to the reality that there is a potential for peace out of this initiative. Once we get that, we haven't even got that, once we've got that then we can start to look at how we can reform. MCDONALD: You may say that they're being arrogantly dismissive, but it could argued that you are being dangerously pre-emptive before any kind of process, before the proposals are public, by saying that Unionists have no veto, which implies that people who vote for the status quo in Northern Ireland in any future dispensation. ADAMS (ACTOR'S VOICE): If I may say so it isn't a new position, I mean the union's been given a veto is what put us in this situation. If the people of Ireland, if the democratic norm had been applied here as is applied everywhere else in the world then we wouldn't be in this situation and the Unionists and the rest of us would have long since have made peace. The Unionists can have no veto over the union and the principle is very important, but of course in terms of what we build in a new Ireland, the Unionists significantly have to be involved, the Unionists have to have absolute guarantees. We can't go forward without them. There's no way we can build any sort of a peaceful Ireland unless we have the Unionists heavily involved in all of that process. But, the current position, and I think this is where we need to distinguish, you see the current position is that the British Government fall back all the time on their own position, we will do nothing for as long as the Unionists want us to do protect our position and that cannot be, because that is dooming the people of this island just to conflict and perpetuity. MCDONALD: But you're saying this is not a new position and the question is: what is new, therefore, about the proposals that you and Mr Hume have drawn up? You are saying, at the moment an IRA cease-fire is not in place, at the moment there's no switch on how the Unionists themselves may decide, and when I say the Unionists I mean the people of Northern Ireland who would prefer the status quo to any other possible dispensation, there's no change there. So, what room is there actually for progress? ADAMS (ACTOR'S VOICE): Well you see, part of the difficulty we have in terms of elaborating is that of necessity. This part of our process has to remain secret, has to remain private, and I mean that is of necessity because these matters have been put forward for consideration to both Governments and that's part of our difficulty. But the initiative that is required, first of all, needs everyone to focus on the potential for peace. Recently we've been told that the British Government had no selfish interests in Ireland - had no strategic interests, had no interest in being here - so if it has no interest in being here surely, therefore, contrary to what Mr. Major is saying, it should be open to at least examining and exploring the possibility of moving forward and of bringing the Unionists on board because you cannot ever divorce a reality of the Unionist position from the reality of the British Government's position. MCDONALD: Gerry Adams, thank you very much indeed. ...oooOooo...