............................................................................... ON THE RECORD GEORGE ROBERTSON INTERVIEW RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION: BBC-1 DATE: 29.11.92 ............................................................................... JONATHAN DIMBLEBY: George Robertson, for your Party to show real leadership on Europe, you would have to say unequivocally that Labour will NOT let the Maastricht Bill fall in the House of Commons. But you don't seem to have much stomach for that. GEORGE ROBERTSON, MP: Well, that's your opinion and that's your question and I think that is highly mischievous, editorialising that went on in that film. I think as we approach the Committee stage this coming week people will bear in mind the fact that the Government put this in its paving motion, or its paving debate, a few weeks ago that it was urgent. So dramatically urgent that they got the Bill back into Committee stage that they could not wait until the Edinburgh Summit, and they'll also bear in mind our arguments that we should wait until the Edinburgh Summit and here it is coming back only eight days before that Summit. i don't know who's being mischievous or at least playing around with the future of Europe, but it's not the Labour Party. DIMBLEBY: Well, let's lay the mischief then and let's be absolutely clear. Tell the public - are you going to let the Maastricht Bill fall in the House of Commons or not? ROBERTSON: Well, we're going to give this Bill, and the Treaty that it incorporates into British Law, the proper debate and scrutiny that the Bill requires. We are not going to give it easily because we're going to expect a full debate on it. We didn't say that May was the end of the process, it was the Government who said that the Committee stage would take until May. Now we will, during the timetable that they have laid down, give the debate the right run that it should get and make sure that the British people get the scrutiny of this legislation that it demands. DIMBLEBY: Okay. You'll let it have the right run that you think is appropriate. I'm not asking you to curtail the debate or to run it through the House, of course. What I want to know again is - you say you're not happy with parts of it. In the end, are you going to let the Maastricht Treaty fall or not? It's a rather fundamental question. ROBERTSON: It depends on the outcome of the debate. Surely... DIMBLEBY: You could let it fall? ROBERTSON: Well, surely, there is no advantage to be gained from saying in advance we will give everything to the Government that they want. We want, for instance, the Social Chapter. It is not included in the debate, in the Bill as it stands just now because they, Britain is specifically excluded from that. Now that is a very crucial part of - for the Labour Party and for this country - of the debate that is up coming. It won't come until right in the middle of the Committee stage. Now, we're obviously going to contest that very strongly and we intend to change the Government's mind on it. DIMBLEBY: But that's all very well. You may be able to change their mind. We won't know that, though it's part of the opt-out Clause that Britain has. The other is, as you know, the single currency. Leaving aside those two questions, the rest of the Maastricht Treaty cannot be amended. It is word for word as it is. My question once more to you - because this is the best way of answering the charge that you're fudging and are all over the place, is to say at the end of the day we want it, as the other countries of Europe, bar the Danes so far, also want it. ROBERTSON: Well, we want it. As Clare Short said in your film, we want it with the Social Chapter included in it and we will, therefore, go through it... DIMBLEBY: Clare Short said you didn't want it. ROBERTSON: She said that we should say to the Government that if they give us a Social Chapter we will give them the Bill. That's what SHE said. What we are saying is that there are a whole series of other issues here that deserve to be, deserve, the British public deserve to have answers on them. We'll decide at the end of it. Our objective as a political Party is to wreck the Government, not to wreck the Maastricht Treaty. DIMBLEBY: Okay, well let's look at the particular way in which you have the choice of saving the Maastricht Treaty or potentially wrecking the Maastricht Treaty. Let's take your opposition. The official opposition that you have to the independent Central Bank - that's your Party's view. You have an amendment laid down opposing that. You know that it's in the Treaty and will not be removed. Are you going to vote for an amendment which might bring down the Treaty on those grounds, or are you still going to tell me we might to this, we might do that? ROBERTSON: Well, that is one of many amendments that we have down to the Treaty, all of which would have the affect of wrecking it, but they are the only methods by which we can debate these very, very important issues. We're not bound to vote for any of our amendments, especially the amendments on areas like majority voting and the environment or,
say, new industrial powers, because we've got them down on the order paper simply to allow debate and to explore the issues that are concerned with that.
And we would very much bear in mind the fact that any amendment we've made would not be an amendment that would make for a more democratically accountable Central Bank, it might mean that there would be no European Central Bank at all. That's something that we would bear in mind. But why should we declare in advance to the Conservative Government at the moment what our tactics are going to be during the Committee stage? DIMBLEBY: We're not talking about the Conservative Government in this alone. We're talking about the Europeans. Your European friends think you're up to a stupid game, as they put it. Now just on that... ROBERTSON: No they don't. They didn't say that at all. Jean Pierre Cot in the edited bit of the speech that you put out made it, gave a salutary warning to the French.... DIMBLEBY: Against stupid games. ROBERTSON: To the French and to others - and he, remember, considers that his own countrymen were playing a silly game when they called a Referendum on Maastricht. DIMBLEBY; Okay. On this Central Bank question. You said that you wouldn't necessarily vote for an amendment that would bring down the Treaty. You recognise that if the amendment against the Central Bank is carried in Westminster - because you do vote for it, and enough Tory sceptics also vote for that amendment - then Maastricht could not be ratified. That's the case. Just as a simple fact, is it not? ROBERTSON: Well, you're presuming that the Committee stage amendment wouldn't be reversed in the report stage, or even reversed in the House of Lords, but I'm saying to you is that when the day comes when that amendment is put to the House of Commons we'll obviously make a decision then, but to tell YOU in advance what our tactics are going to be about closures or about guillotines, or about any of our amendments on the order paper, is to give the Government advance warning at a time when this Government is causing such huge damage to the British economy. DIMBLEBY: But, I think, I suspect what you're up to and you haven't given convincing evidence otherwise. What you're really up to is doing for your Euro-sceptics what the Government has been trying to do for its Euro-sceptics. You're trying to buy time with them, hold the Party together, say the crunch doesn't come yet - stay on board folks. ROBERTSON: Well, we're going to have something like six months of debate on this Committee stage. Now we didn't decide on six months. We were quite prepared for a shorter timetable had the Government chosen to wait until after the Edinburgh Summit, for the conclusions of that Summit, to at least let the people of this country know where we were going on the Danish question. The Government said it was hugely urgent and have now delayed it to the point where it's only eight days before the Summit. But with six months of debating ahead of us, and with the possibility that we can also stop rail privatisation, water privatisation in Scotland, and the abolition of the Wages Council because the Government has chosen to take that out, why should I tell you in advance what our tactics are going to be? DIMBLEBY: Well, I tell you - I suggest to you that there are an awful lot of people interested in the principle of this and one thing that they would want to know just to pursue this point through - is are you willing to allow the sceptics to filibuster the Maastricht Bill into oblivion? Or would you stop that happening? ROBERTSON: We're not going to filibuster and we're not going to allow others to filibuster. There is more than enough meat in this Treaty to be debated right up until the time when the Government says it has to be concluded, and that is what we will do. None of the sceptics.. DIMBLEBY: Would you ever accept a guillotine? ROBERTSON: Well, we're not going to accept a guillotine... DIMBLEBY: Under any circumstances? ROBERTSON: No Opposition in this country has accepted a guillotine and we've made it absolutely clear that we will not vote for a guillotine on this Bill or any other Bill. DIMBLEBY: Under ANY circumstances? ROBERTSON: Well, I'm not sure what circumstances you are talking about. This Bill doesn't need to be filibustered to be given a full and detailed consideration by the House of Commons, but it will be the Labour PARTY that will run the Committee stage not right-wing Tory Nationalists or any minority element within the Labour Party. We will give it the proper detailed debating consideration that the British people expect of us. DIMBLEBY: And they will judge, Mr. Robertson.... ROBERTSON: They will indeed. DIMBLEBY: ..whether it's high principles that you're fighting for or low politics that you're playing. Thank you very much indeed. ROBERTSON: Okay. Thanks. ...oooOooo...