................................................................................ ON THE RECORD MAASTRICHT DISCUSSION RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 14.3.93 ................................................................................ JONATHAN DIMBLEBY: That was John Rentoul reporting on the divided passions in the Conservative Party. And with me now - arch Euro rebel Bill Cash; arch Euro enthusiast Steve Milligan and, in the middle of that sandwich, Euro unifier, Sir John Wheeler. First of all Stephen Milligan to you. Listening to that it suggests that putting the frighteners on the consituency parties was a pretty bad idea. STEPHEN MILLIGAN MP: Well, could I just begin by correcting one point in your film, because you suggested in the film that those of us who are supporters of Europe and the Party are very unhappy with the Prime Minister's tactics - that is not the case. DIMBLEBY: We'll come on to that. Let's stick with this first on all though. You'll certainly have a chance to make....Let's if we can... various tactics... on the approach, what's your view? Was it counterproductive? MILLIGAN: I don't think it's counterproductive. I think there are a lot of people in the constituencies who are not enthusiastic for Maastricht but are fed up with the delay; fed up with some much concentration going on the debate on Maastrict when there are so many other issues - the rise in crime, the state of the economy - which they feel we should be dealing with and I notice in my own constituency, even amongst people who are not Euro enthusiasts, they are fed up with the divisions in the Party; they are fed up with the delays in getting this Treaty through and I think they are very sympathetic to what the Prime Minister's trying to do. DIMBLEBY: And the Bill Cash's are to blame? MILLIGAN: Yes they are, yes they are. DIMBLEBY: Bill Cash - no loyalty, no sense of duty, no sense of proportion in holding up the proper business of Parliament. WILLIAM CASH MP: Well, first of all this is a matter of national interest and indeed a matter of national conscience. The second thing is, if you heard Norman Fowler on the Today programme only this week he was saying that the timetable wasn't being held up because after all these things were all going on in the Lords and everything was... DIMBLEBY: He also said you shouldn't dine a la carte if your a loyal member of the Party. CASH: Yes. Well, if you look at the Exchange Rate Mechanism which was the central plank of our economic strategy in the manifesto, the fact that we got out - which we were very glad about but despite consistent denials by the Prime Minister and by the Chancellor of the Exchequer that we would - demonstrates our point. We were proved right as indeed we have been over a number of other matters. DIMBLEBY: Isn't there an element of truth Sir John in what Bill Cash says. To this extent - that the strategy of talking tough had the effect of increasing not reducing the number of rebels. Go on like this and the whole Party will be against Maastricht. SIR JOHN WHEELER MP: Well, of course, much of the strategy of talking tough is exaggerated by the media industry which loves to build up a drama. DIMBLEBY: Exaggerated by that lot in Reigate, like the Chairman saying bully-boy tactics. WHEELER: Well, we ought to be just a little cautious before we leap into every statement and assume that it represents exactly what is going on. The truth, of course, is always a good deal different and the fact of the matter is that we have an ancient and honourable Parliamentary democracy and a Party in the Conservative Party in which debate and argument is always alive. Always will be, I hope, otherwise there'll be no point in having either a Parliament or a Party. But at the end of the day, when this issue is over, all Parliamentary members of the Party will come together as they are united on other issues now. DIMBLEBY: But meanwhile the issue continues. You have, according to a survey done by I think a hundred and forty four constituency parties, for Week in Politics for Channel Four, that half the constituency Party Chairmen think that the Government is handling this thoroughly badly. Forty per cent of them don't want Maastricht to be ratified. So what do you do now? WHEELER: People, of course, are frustrated about the debate going on over a long period of time, but it's inevitable with an issue of this kind that it would and remember the debate is every bit as strong within the ranks of the Labour Party as it is within the ranks of the Liberal Party. There's one Liberal MP who doesn't vote with the majority of the Liberal MPs. So there are real divisions of cross parties. DIMBLEBY: Come on, Sir John. It's hardly thought
to be the core of the problem. That is not one of your best efforts on that kind of front. WHEELER: It's a jolly good one though. DIMBLEBY: Do you care Bill Cash about humiliating the Prime Minister? CASH: It's not a question of that, as I've said, it is a matter of national interest and you've got to remember that this thing goes back over a fair way of time. I have, myself, always been very much in favour of the European Community. I voted for the Single European Act and I would do so again. DIMBLEBY: But you are humiliating him, aren't you? CASH: Well I ... DIMBLEBY: You are putting him in an impossible position? CASH: I don't think that is so and in fact if you look at the position, for example, of the Danish Prime Minister over the Danish Referendum, he obviously put his weight behind it. It is a controversial issue. In Denmark it was turned down, but he didn't feel it necessary to resign and I think that really that speaks volumes for the situation, as far as we are concerned. DIMBLEBY: Stephen Milligan, is Peter Temple-Morris right to believe that the Prime Minister is being damaged by this. MILLIGAN: Well, the whole Government is being damaged, not just in terms of its image but in terms of its programme, because of the amount of time that's been spent on this. We've already spent three months debating Maastricht and we're only half way through. And it means to say there isn't time to discuss other matters like crime, unemployment, the rest of the Government's programme. So, yes the Government is being damaged but simply because it doesn't have the time to do all the other measures that need to be discussed. CASH: I really must come in on that actually Stephen because, quite apart from what I said Norman Fowler said the other day,
the fact is the Whips determine the timetable and it's well known that the Procedure Committee, for example, wanted to end business at ten o'clock and the reality is that we are merely debating at some length, but because it's so important, issues which have been properly selected by the Chairman of Ways and Means -a nd I can't believe that you would seriously want the British nation not to know what the truth is, particularly as we've had no free vote and no White Paper. MILLIGAN: No, no this is complete nonsense. The fact is the Whips don't determine it because there's been a majority as we've found this week when there was a majority against the Whips. The Whips wanted to go on. You have been delaying the whole time, having very long debates, voting against closure motions, trying to obstruct in every way possible so the Government is not able to get its programme through and it's not correct to say the Whips can simply have their way, because they're not having their way. CASH: I didn't say that, I said they determine the timetable. DIMBLEBY: Sir John, who's right on that point of substance between them? Is Bill Cash and his gang holding it up? Or is Steve Milligan and his gang getting too hot around the collar? WHEELER: Well, there's a bit of both isn't there? The fact of the matter is there's been over a hundred hours of debate on the Amendment Bill; the Government is making very satisfactory progress; it is getting through much of its legislation; but it is also true there are some pieces of legislation that it might have introduced into this Parliamentary session that will slip into the next one. To that extent, there is this frustration. I think there's a greater degree of boredom by the majority of people in the Parliamentary Party and in the House as a whole because of the need to devote so much time to this issue, because what is clear is that there is a majority in the Conservative Party in the House (as there is a majority in the House itself) to pass this legislation. DIMBLEBY: OK. Now given that that is the case and the code in that is it would be a jolly good thing if it didn't take as long as it's taking... CASH: Could I say - Jonathan, you can't say, nor can Jonathan say, that this is... John say, that this is simply something which, you know, is being very boring and taking a long time. We haven't even got to economic monetary union yet and that deals with the principle of whether or not, even in stage two, we would effectively move towards handing over our own monetary affairs and that's the voters rights to choose. DIMBLEBY: OK. Now let me... CASH: .. to unelected, unaccountable bankers. It's a very important principle. DIMBLEBY: It's well known that if you can make it go on as long as you can, that's your tactic. I'm not debating whether that's right or wrong... CASH: That is not the purpose - the purpose is to debate it properly. DIMBLEBY: Forgive me, it's the effect and what I want to ask you, therefore, under those circumstances of Stephen Milligan - do you believe that the Government should.. can afford to ignore the rebels in the ranks or has the Prime Minister got to come out as someone as suggesting they've got to come out fighting? MILLIGAN: Well, I don't think there's any chance of wooing the rebels over. I mean, Norman Tebbit has been admirably frank about this. He said they will vote to say the moon is made of blue cheese if that would delay the Treaty. They will stop at nothing. Bill says there's got to be a proper debate. Well, of course, he's already spoken for six hours - I don't how much longer he's going on to speak. If you want proper debate, I don't think that's the way to do it - to drag it out. DIMBLEBY: So what does the Government do to get out of a hole? MILLIGAN: Well, the problem the Government is in, and you've talked about the tactics and the difficulties this week, don't just have to do with the rebels - they have to do with the voting on the Opposition benches. Now, there is a large majority in the House of Commons in favour of this Treaty. The Labour Party says they're in favour of it, the Liberals say they're in favour of it, but they've not been willing to support the Government in the lobbies, because as George Robertson said in your film, they've taken every opportunity to do damage to the Government. So the Government's got to consider them as well as the rebels on their own benches if it's to get this Treaty through. DIMBLEBY: Now, given that the Labour Party and the Liberals are going to play the game right the way through to cause as much trouble as they can, that suggests that the Government is going to have to face losing more amendmends and is actually going to have to endure for as long as Bill Cash and the Labour Party want to keep this going. MILLIGAN: Well, it's obviously going to take a long time - it's going to take longer because of the amendment that was passed this week, which means that we'll have a report stage, which is a scope for more delaying tactics. Now, I think it's important to remember that, for example, the Liberal Party supports the Maastricht Treaty. I think the Government's got to try and hold on to their principles. I don't think you're going to convert Bill Cash - he's made his position very clear. But the Liberals and many of the Labour Party say they're in favour of it. And if they believe the interests of the country are more important than Party politics, we've got to hold them to their principles. CASH: Well, it certainly isn't true to say, just like that if I may say so Stephen - it's a question of putting the country first. Bear in mind this is a European issue; bear in mind that only thirty-six per cent of the French people actually voted for Maastricht; bear in mind the Danes have turned it down; there is very deep disturbance in Germany. The fact is the political landscape has changed. As the Prime Minister said when he was interviewed by Nick Lloyd with regard to the Exchange Rate Mechanism, when circumstances change you change with them, and I say that the circumstances have so changed regarding Maastricht that this thing should be dumped. DIMBLEBY: Now, given that, Sir John, wouldn't there be a way through potentially if (given changed circumstances that are alleged by Bill Cash) the Government was flexible about the idea of a Referendum. WHEELER: What an awful and expensive diversion that would be, and how pointless it would be. Treaties are negotiated by Governments, not by Parliaments. Parliaments may have to approve the principle of them. There would be no point in a Referendum - the Referendum wouldn't be about Maastricht, it would be about almost anything else that was in the minds of the individual voter at the time. DIMBLEBY: If the Government were, Bill Cash, to offer a Referendum, would that buy off, as it were, in favour of a Referendum, significant chunks of your people? CASH: Well, the suggestion that was made in the papers this morning, that we might have one in the next Parliament about a single currency, is just simply not a runner at all, but we do want a Referendum. Seventy-three per cent of the British people in the most recent Mori poll have said so. They've had them in other countries as well, and the fact is that the constitutional precedence for a Referendum with regard to Northern Ireland, Wales, Scotland and the EC, are overwhelming. There's a lot of bunkum being talked about the fact that it would not be consistent with our Parliamentary democracy. It has to be passed by an Act of Parliament. DIMBLEBY: If you don't get one and if this acrimony and bitterness continues and intensifies, as it is bound to do if there are more amendments lost, Bill Cash .... just one second Sir John ... do you care if you, in effect, bring the Government to its knees, not that it's put out of power, but it lacks all credibility? Does that worry you? CASH: Well, we're certainly not doing that. What we're doing is debating this issue which is of great importance and, in fact, this Referendum campaign which I started up with others, in fact, has gained enormous support. DIMBLEBY: OK. Let me just ask you, Stephen Milligan. Can the Government endure losing one amendment after another, leading up to the Social Chapter amendment? MILLIGAN: It can, provided they're not Treaty-wrecking amendments. There have been some amendments put forward - a lot put forward by Bill and his friends - which are deliberately designed to wreck the Treaty by any manner of means. Some of these small amendments that the Labour Party are putting forward - saying there should be a report back, a report back on this - are very minor changes, designed to cause difficulties for the Government but not designed to wreck the Treaty. Provided the Treaty is approved, that is the main objective; that's what we want. DIMBLEBY: And Sir John, may I put it to you what a lot of the public might be thinking, and this is supposed - I suspect - in their mind - and this is supposed to be a Party of Government? WHEELER: There isn't acrimony and bitterness between members of the Parliamentary Party. DIMBLEBY: You mean there's love and brotherhood between Bill Cash and Stephen Milligan? WHEELER: No. Allow me to use my words. There is Parliamentary friendship between people who are engaged in an honest debate. At the end of the day, the Conservative Parliamentary Party will be reunited as never before. The truth of the matter is there is a majority in the House for Maastricht, and the majority will have its way eventually. DIMBLEBY: Sir John, thank you. Stephen Milligan, thank you. Bill Cash, thank you.