................................................................................ ON THE RECORD RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 16.5.93 ................................................................................ SHEENA McDONALD: Good afternoon. Analysis is not cure.
But last week's admission that the Government is in a dreadful hole was followed by two U-turns - on education tests and the criminal law - they were followed by the Prime Minister's suggestion that the Government might have to "tack" and "manoeuvre" a little. So does the Secretary of State for Wales David Hunt see more changes ahead as he and his colleagues climb towards the light? I'll be asking him in a moment. During the ten days since the Government's nose was bloodied by the voters, has the administration made any headway in convincing its disgruntled and disaffected supporters that the bottom of the dreadful hole has been reached and the climb back is well underway? On Friday night, while John Major rallied his party in Scotland, the Crawley Conservative Association held its annual Churchill Dinner, graced by the presence of grandson Winston, and sitting member and grandson Nicholas Soames. As one leader's memory was evoked how did the current leadership match up, Kim Catcheside found out. ****** McDONALD: And joining me now is the Secretary of State for Wales, David Hunt. Welcome, thank you for joining us. Let's start with the fundamentals, because it has been a confusing week. This time last week the Home Secretary described the dreadful hole the Government's in, the Chief Secretary to the Treasury said he could see no change in policy, the following week there were two U-turns, a minor Government revolt on the back benches over VAT extensions and, finally, on Friday the Prime Minister spoke. He said we're not going to change our objectives. Now, precisely what are they? DAVID HUNT MP: Well, moving forward, we've been remarkably consistent in for instance our economic policy and driving down inflation. And in our European policy in being right on the centre stage. And don't forget in the Europe of today there are many countries queuing up at the stage door, but John Major's put us very effectively right at the heart of Europe and on these key policies and principles there is a remarkable consistency running straight through, ever since we got into power some fourteen years ago. McDONALD: Can we separate policies and principles for a moment. I mean, what are the principles? What are the objectives? HUNT: Well, so much is now taken for granted, but there were great battles in the 80s over the right to buy, the ability for people to be recognized as individuals, having the right to own their own home, having the right to be shareholders - we've trebled the number of shareholders from three million to nearly eleven million, having their own pension scheme. These are the themes that have run right through - freedom of the individual, rolling back the frontiers of the State, and don't forget the dramatic transformation in industrial relations as a result of the policies we brought in. McDONALD: Right, freedom of the individual,rolling back the frontiers of the State. Now let's talk about the policies that you implement to achieve those objectives. Now, I would suggest that the confusion stems from people not being sure whether the Government is now going to pursue those objectives straightforwardly, or whether it's going to, as the Prime Minister suggested on Friday, tack and manoeuvre. Which is it? HUNT: Well, just as we had to when we first got in in '79 when we had a comparatively small majority, of course we have to take that into account. But the consistency is still there and shines through our policies of the '80s and now of the '90s. I was in Margaret Thatcher's Cabinet, I was very comfortable in that Cabinet under her leadership, she was just the right Prime Minister for the 1980s, and now John Major's just the right Prime Minister for the 1990s. McDONALD: What is tacking and manoeuvring? HUNT: Well, in a Parliament, just as happens in many other countries, a Government has to make sure that it can get its legislation through, and it has to take account of the fact that when it has a majority of one hundred and fifty, it is easier to get the legislation through than when it has a majority in ... below twenty. McDONALD: So for instance, Kenneth Clarke's U-turn last week on the Criminal Justice Bill, was that tacking and manoeuvring? HUNT: Well, we hear so much about U-turns. I don't regard them as U-turns... McDONALD: Well, it's a policy change. HUNT: ...I see them as policy changes, yes. A U-turn is a very different situation and I've not seen that since we got in in 1979. I see consistency of policy, particularly on the economy in Europe. McDONALD: But you would agree that that was a policy change last week? HUNT: Yes and Kenneth Clarke came to the House of Commons, was absolutely open with the House, that we'd looked at ways of changing the unit fine system, and we decided it couldn't be changed so we were going to get rid of it. But he still ensured that everbody understood that the basic elements of that Criminal Justice Act was still in place. McDONALD: What about John Patten's policy change on the Education Bill? HUNT: Well, again, we are absolutely right and firm about the national curriculum which we introduced. We're absolutely firm about the need to test - although I know the President of the NUT recently said that she didn't want to see any tests at all, she wanted to demolish testing. But we're absolutely firm about that. What we've said is that Ron Dearing is now going to have an overall look, a review, and I think that very much meets the hopes and aspirations of the teachers. McDONALD: Well, you think so, but of course the teachers when they voted obviously didn't think so. They don't think that John Patten in fact has gone far enough. Why didn't he do as Kenneth Clarke does in your description? Why didn't he come and say no, this isn't working - take it all the way and say we will postpone this year? HUNT: Because it is working, and I've been at meetings with teachers over the past few weeks where people acknowledge now that the national curriculum was right, they acknowledge that the tests are right. What teachers feel is that it's now got too complicated, that there are too many tests and that is why Sir Ron is going to come in and have a look at the ... McDONALD: A mass of teachers clearly don't feel that these tests of fourteen year olds should be implemented this year. HUNT: But we heard that teachers, if you will recall, didn't agree with testing of seven year olds, but that's now in its third year it's generally accepted. So we win through in the arguments but we have to take teachers and parents and everybody with us; and I think the lesson of the election results - and we have been here before, but the lesson of them is we must continue to do what we did in the 80s when we had these substantial reverses in the polls and council elections - some disastrous results in the 1980s, we listened. We're very good at winning general elections but only because we do listen. McDONALD: But what has changed is that policies can now change. That is a difference from the previous administration. HUNT: No, I recall that Margaret Thatcher always did listen. We had to lead from ... McDONALD: But what policy changes can you recall? HUNT: Well if you remember when we first got in in 1979 there was a general view that we had to bring in an immediate Industrial Relations Act, really almost back to the Industrial Relations Act of the early 70s. In fact, Margaret Thatcher accepted a step-by-step approach and slowly but surely we've eradicated what was known in the 60s and 70s as the British disease. Now it's not there any more. We have some of the finest industrial relations in Europe, thanks to Conservative policies. McDONALD: Let's look ahead, you have an objective on the railways to improve them. You have a policy - privatisation. Is that likely to change? HUNT: No, because I support privatisation of British Rail in the way I supported all the privatisations we've seen since we came in in '79, because I do not believe that the state runs organisations profitably and well, and I support privatisation because I believe it will increase the value of the services. McDONALD: But you're describing the objective there again, but what about a Thatcherite as you would characterise it, step by step approach towards that objective? HUNT: Well, I believe we have got - we have listened over a lengthy period of time. We have now got the solution, we're bringing it before parliament, and I believe it will be a very successful privatisation just as those original privatisations which were fought tooth and nail by the Labour Party are now accepted as having been great successes. McDONALD: But, do you anticipate a tack or a manoeuvre up the line on this one and a policy change? HUNT: Well I think when you get to parliament and you have a narrow majority and you have to win through the legislation you have to take account of the narrowness of the majority, that's what the Prime Minister was saying. It's recognising the inevitable consequence of a smaller majority and we had varying majorities in the eighties. We went up to nearly a hundred-and-fifty, but when we started off we had a small majority. McDONALD: To clarify, we may have a policy change on the rail privatisation proposals as they stand? HUNT: No, I have said that we have consistent policy decisions that have been made after lengthy consultation. This privatisation will now be a great success. McDONALD: What about Scotland's water. Now there you have an objective, clean cheap water, you have a policy to privatise water services. Will that change? HUNT: No, Ian Lang has laid the policy clearly, and I think Scotland's a very good example to look at at the moment to see what Conservative policies have brought to Scotland. They've had a very successful conference during the course of the last week. The Prime Minister made a rousing speech, got a tremendous ovation. The party is in good fettle in Scotland. McDONALD: The majority of delegates at that conference are opposed to the privatisation proposals for Scotland's water. HUNT: Well, we always have a good healthy debate in our own party, as we're having on Europe, but the fundamental Conservative principles shine through. McDONALD: But are you sure there's no room for tack or manoeuvre on that one? HUNT: No. What you mustn't confuse is the consistency of policy which shines through in the Conservative Party and the adjustment to the parliamentary situation. Now ... McDONALD: I can see the consistency of principle, I can see the consistency of objective. What I'm confused about is whether or not policy change is now part of your parliamentary procedure. HUNT: No, we lay our policies very clearly before parliament. It's then up to parliament to decide whether or not to accept them. The smaller the majority the more difficult it is to get things through, but our policy consistency is there. McDONALD: Unless you have to tack and manoeuvre as last week with the Education Bill and the Criminal Justice Bill - Criminal Justice Act I should say. HUNT: Yes, that was a case of a policy that had been introduced with a lot of support at the time, that hasn't been working, so we recognised that, and we've changed accordingly. McDONALD: There's the postal services. I mean there you have an objective to increase competition. You have a policy which is privatisation. Is that going to change? HUNT: No, we have a clear policy on all these issues. We are not in the business of changing policy or policy direction. We'll lay our policies before parliament - it's then up to us to win the arguments in parliament. McDONALD: Secretary of State, I confess I'm still confused. You say that there were policy changes last week. Looking ahead to implementation of policy, you say policy changes are not possible. Why not, given that you've agreed that there is a small parliamentary majority and that tacking and manoeuvring is politics, it's a way of using that majority? HUNT: I've been a member of this government since 1979 and from time to time we have come to parliament, come to the country to say that this policy hasn't been working and therefore we will adjust, we will change, but the basic Conservative principles and policies have shone through all these areas for many years now, and I believe a lot of the things which are present today, good advantages are taken for granted by a lot of population. McDONALD: Now, given that you are now a listening and learning administration why is it not possible to listen, learn and adjust before things come to parliament, for instance on rail privatisation, for instance on Scotland's water where the great majority of Tory supporters in Scotland who are not the majority of voters are opposed to this, why not listen now? HUNT: We do listen and learn and that is why we consistently win general elections and people do know what we stand for, because we are very firm on those basic principles. I mean we haven't spoken about the Labour Party, but I'm not quite sure what the Labour Party stands for. McDONALD: I can't believe you came to talk about the Labour Party Secretary of State, but since you mention general elections let me quote the Prime Minister's summing up on Friday. He said millions of people at the last general election supported us because we set out simply and clearly what we stood for and where we were going. Now ten days ago millions of people failed to support you. Why? Is it because you've lost their trust because you've backed off from what you simply and clearly set out, or because they don't know where you're going, or what? HUNT: Well, undoubtedly we've gone through a bad patch. We recognise that. We have had to listen very effectively at the ballot box in the local elections, but we were going to listen anyway and we have constantly to take that into account. But at the last election everybody knew what we stood for, but the Labour Party have now said that they don't agree with the policies they fought. If I can just mention, 'cause you mentioned the Labour Party before my reference - Neil Kinnock has said he doesn't now believe the policies he was fighting. Last night Roy Hattersley said he didn't really believe the policies they were fighting. They've got a leader who masterminded their defeat at the last election. No-one knows what they really stand for. But with the Conservatives, everyone knows what we stand for. McDONALD: Well let's try and concentrate on the Conservatives. There's a confusion about what the objectives are I would suggest. Now, Maastricht reaches its third, the Maastricht Bill reaches its third reading this week and on Friday we heard the Prime Minister say I want to hear more about principled support for Europe, which echoes his previous commitment to Britain and you've quoted it being at the heart of Europe; very proper sentiments for a leader who has worked hard to pull his fractious and often faction-riven party towards European economic and political union. And yet, in the same speech, he says we have an ambivalent attitude to the European Community, we do not love Europe. Now, you can't please all the people all the time because you end up pleasing no-one, so can you clarify on this one. Do we love Europe? What is the Government's real objective here? HUNT: Well, we believe Britain must be at the heart of Europe. That underpins all our strategies stretching over a whole range of policies. And referring to Maastricht, I believe our troubles on Europe very much started with the `no' vote in the Danish referendum, and I believe they will end with the `yes' vote in the Danish referendum. McDONALD: Assuming we get it on Tuesday. HUNT: I'm very confident we shall, and then I understand a lot of people in our party - their long-standing aversion to certain aspects of Europe, and I share some of their belief that the future lies with a free trade, free enterprise Europe. McDONALD: Do you love Europe? HUNT: Yes, I... McDONALD: Why did the Government say we don't love Europe?....was that a nod to? HUNT: We don't like the way the European community has developed. If we'd have been in from the start the Treaty of Rome wouldn't be the Treaty of Rome we have today. We'd have never believed in the creation of a centralised bureaucracy. What we're seeking to do - and Maastricht is a step along the way, is to try and bring Europe round to the British way of thinking. And looking at the new members who are coming along, particularly from the Scandinavian countries, they are very much believers in the sort of Europe we want to see based on free and fair trade and free enterprise. McDONALD: Accepting that commitment then, let's look at a key policy to rejoin the ERM, that is Government policy. Now there are splits in the country, there are splits amongst your supporters, and it's whispered there are splits within the Cabinet. Are we, do we have an ambivalent attitude to the ERM to rejoining it? Can you clarify that? HUNT: I sometimes think I live in a different country when I read some of the press reports about splits here and splits there. I'm a member, as I was under Margaret Thatcher, of a very united Cabinet behind a strong Prime Minister. And we feel very strongly indeed on a whole range of policies. There are no great divisions here. McDONALD: So you're telling me there is an absolute consensus commitment to rejoining the ERM when the time is right? HUNT: Well I wanted to deal with the Exchange Rate Mechanism because I am all for stability in Exchange Rates, but there were fault lines building up in the Exchange Rate Mechanism which caused the problems that occurred last September. Now I wouldn't contemplate even thinking about joining a system for Exchange Rate stability until those fault lines have been put aside and conquered, and we're still seeing those fault lines there. Some... in a way it tries to abolish the law of supply and demand and you can't do that and we have to rethink the whole strategy of bringing stability through to business. We're now in the single market - great opportunities ahead! I'm full of confidence about the future for this country. No wonder the European Commission says we'll be the fastest growing economy not only this year but next. But we need that stability. McDONALD: Let's talk about how now. Let's talk about absent policies. The Prime Minister's been talking about red meat. People are asking where's the beef? On Friday he says we must build a strong manufacturing base. What are the policies you will implement to achieve that objective? HUNT: The policies that we've been carrying through since 1979. I've felt for a very long time, not just because I'm a ... brought up in Merseyside, born in Wales. We've seen in Wales policies which really have enabled us to rebuild manufacture. We used to be dependent ... McDONALD: Well, indeed, in Wales that's true. Now where is the successful formula there that you might apply to the rest of the country, because, with respect, the policies you've been implementing since 1979 don't seem to have sustained a strong manufacturing base and indeed the Prime Minister is saying we must build, which seems to imply that there's a bit of reconstruction to be done there. HUNT: Well, it's only now being recognised the success in Wales. When my predecessors, Nicholas Edwards and Peter Walker were fighting to rebuild the manufacturing sector there were a lot of brickbats being thrown, particularly from the opposition, when we've now seen that we've achieved it. There are over eight hundred new factories and units of production in place now since 1979 that are still in production and it's the same policies. McDONALD: So given that you're proud of that, what would you apply to the rest of Britain? HUNT: The same policies. We used to be the worst part of the UK for industrial relations. We had the worst record in the whole of the United Kingdom. Now we have the best because of the new reforms brought in in the eighties by this Conservative government. McDONALD: And of course a degree of regional subsidy which wasn't - which isn't available... HUNT: Yes....selective assistance has been a very fundamental part of the Conservative government's philosophy. We put public money, but with private money. It must be the private sector that leads the recovery, so it's the Welsh dragon now breathing fire into the UK recovery because of the investment we've made through regional selective assistance. McDONALD: Indeed. So you would like to see that kind of regional selective assistance applied more widely around the country. HUNT: It's a partnership, that's what we've done in Wales. We've brought everybody together, people put party politics second and they fight for Wales. I shall be going in two weeks time to North America, fighting for the UK. We have record levels of investment coming in to the United Kingdom into manufacturing - that's what our Prime Minister talks about.... McDONALD: .....that kind of public investment programme? HUNT: Yes, it's a partnership between local and central government, but led by the private sector. McDONALD: Do you think Mr Portillo will be happy to hear that, given that he has the job of keeping down the PSBR. His review is asking everybody to make cuts in their spending plans as far as public application of funds goes. I mean let's look at one particular instance. Public pay is to be held - public pay rises to one-point-five per cent. Now we know already that the Firemen's Union say this is in breach of an agreement, we're not going to take it. Is there room for tack and manoeuvre there? HUNT: No. We've - I believe it's been a remarkable success, the public pay policy, because I think everybody accepts that as you're coming out of a recession you have got to keep pay down, because we have to increase our competitiveness and Michael Heseltine's doing a tremendous amount of work with the Prime Minister now in improving the competitiveness of the UK economy and provided we can keep these policies moving forward you will see that in the nineties we will become and I strongly believe Wales will become one of the great growth regions, one of the great growth countries of the world. McDONALD: Can I clarify the leadership position, because it is being talked about, not just by the papers, not just by the people, but by your own members. Is there in your view any case at all for changing the leadership, for changing the messenger if you like? HUNT: Oh, not at all. McDONALD: None at all? HUNT: I don't know who the people are who talk to the press, but whenever I speak to them they don't echo this. People are very satis... don't forget that John Major almost single handedly won the last general election. People trusted him. He will not let them down and we will not let John Major down. McDONALD: Well, you've touched on John Major. Actually I was thinking of the Chancellor of the Exchequer who wasn't able to endorse his .. the Prime Minister wasn't able to endorse Mr Lamont in the way that you appeared to be doing on Thursday when he was asked three times in the House of Commons whether he would - would the Chancellor of the Exchequer be there in so many months' time and he could not say yes. Why not? Isn't that a pity because it does give the impression that he is not behind his Chancellor. HUNT: Yes, but what John Major said, and I was there in the House of commons at the time, was that these were the wrong questions. What is...(interruption)... no, no, always you are asked about shuffles. It's a matter for the Prime Minister who has which portfolio, but let's jsut recognise for a moment what I think a lot of people recognise abroad that we have a Chancellor of the Exchequer, who at the time he became Chancellor had inflation in double digits, had interest rates at fifteen per cent, who's been remarkably effective in winning through. It's only in this country we say that the government's at fault. In other countries they recognise we've had a severe world recession and we're pulling through in this country because we've been consistent in our economic policy. McDONALD: Why didn't the Prime Minister endorse him then? HUNT: Because the Prime Minister refused quite rightly to get into the personality game. You see John Smith has moved away from the policy game. I mean on Europe I don't know where the Labour Party is now. They were for, they were against, and now they're trying to pretend it's not there at all by abstaining on the key issue. I'm not in the personality game, I'm in the policy business and we have the policies that are going to win through for this country. McDONALD: Secretary of State, thank you very much indeed. ..oooOooo...