............................................................................... ON THE RECORD RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION: BBC-1 DATE: 27.09.92 ............................................................................... JONATHAN DIMBLEBY: Well with such disaffection in the ranks, what course will the Labour leadership steer in trying to hold the line in favour of Maastricht? Last night I went to Blackpool where their conference is about to start to find out from the Shadow Foreign Secretary. Jack Cunningham, in your Party there are sharp divisions of view about Maastricht, are you in favour or against the Maastricht Treaty? JACK CUNNINGHAM MP: I personally am in favour of the Treaty and we made our position clear that the Conservative Government was in our judgement wholly wrong to negotiate opt-outs on the Social Chapter and on progress towards a single currency. That's why we couldn't vote for the Treaty on Second Reading when it came before the House of Commons. But of course there's a much bigger question mark against the future of the Treaty now and that's the Danish rejection of it in their referendum. The French Yes certainly doesn't erase the Danish No and before we can proceed with the weeks of legislation in the House of Commons that position will have to be resolved. DIMBLEBY: I come to the Danish question in just a moment but you said we couldn't vote for the Treaty in the Second Reading, you chose also not to oppose which I presumed was on the assumption that a Labour Government, if it came to office, would be able to say we're going to opt back in to those areas of the Treaty from which the Conservative Government opted out. CUNNINGHAM: Yes of course if Labour had won the General Election we would have had a Bill before the House of Commons now to approve the Maastricht Treaty but we should have wanted to include the Social Chapter and Britain's involvement in progress towards a single currency. Now of course we didn't win but the general arguments across Europe are for the provisions of the Maastricht Treaty remain. DIMBLEBY: Then if you are so committed to the principle of the Treaty why say we're going to wait to see what the Danes do, why not do what the Germans are doing and the French have done and saying we're going to show where we stand. Why isn't that your position? CUNNINGHAM: Because our position is that there's simply no point in months of argument and debate in the House of Commons over a Treaty which is frankly on a life support machine. John Smith and I have had the advantage of long talks with several democratic colleagues in Denmark, it's not at all clear that they or the Danish Conservatives have any idea of how they're going to negotiate some appropriate means of Denmark ratifying the Treaty. Since the Treaty of Rome can only be amended with unanimity there is certainly a hiatous in this whole process. DIMBLEBY: Does that mean that the French were wasting their time with the referendum, that the Germans are about to waste their time - by putting it through the Bundesbank? CUNNINGHAM: No they must make their own decisions, France has provision, constitutional arrangements to hold its referendum as do the Irish - we don't. We and the Conservative Government made this decision but Labour endorsed it at the time, decided to proceed by Parliamentary scrutiny of the Bill and certainly that's the only way I believe we can proceed, if indeed we are able to proceed at all. DIMBLEBY: Now if you are able to proceed which I presume from what you've said you very much hope you are able to proceed and the Danes say we want a renegotiation - would you go along with that? CUNNINGHAM: The Danes are trying to seek an accommodation, I don't think there's going to be any renegotiation of the Treaty after all the Germans and French have made it quite clear they're against any renegotiation. All the Socialist Parties in Europe want the Maastricht Treaty endorsed and put into practice, so I don't see any support for renegotiation either coming from Conservative Government's in Europe or Socialist Government's in Europe. DIMBLEBY: But then that strikes me as extremely confusing because you say you don't think there'll be any renegotiation, you're
in favour of the Treaty in the same way as the Germans are, they're going ahead and making it clear and your saying "oh but no we don't want to waste our time doing that we're going to wait and see what the Danes say". CUNNINGHAM: Well I'm sorry if you find it confusing John and I think the opposition is quite clear which is that until the Danish problem is resolved the Treaty has no future. The Treaty of Rome requires unanimity, there's clearly not unanimity. The Danish people have made a decision and until that can be resolved - if indeed it can, I don't see any argument, for as I've already said tying the House of Commons up in long involved debates over a period of months when the whole thing might be completely redundant. DIMBLEBY: You see I have what you would probably regard as a disreputable lurking suspicion which is that you're only too glad,
given the divisions in your Party, to allow the Danes to carry the can for you not wanting to have to fight it through the House. CUNNINGHAM: You say that but the National Executive Committee has recently very clearly demonstrated its intentions in these matters and the Shadow Cabinet has decided that we remain in favour of managed exchange rates within the European Community. We don't support arguments for a referendum although I've no doubt that will be debated again at conference this week and we stick with our commitment towards a single European currency but it wasn't us who derailed the Treaty in the first place. DIMBLEBY: I'll come onto the referendum later, do you agree with Roy Hattersley who said that from his point of view like you, very much a pro-European, that he would not dream of allowing the defeat of the Bill if when it comes before the House. CUNNINGHAM: I'm not in favour of the defeat of the Bill myself, I want to see the progress in the European Community as set out in the Maastricht Treaty, which incidentally contrary to what's been said about it in Article 2 gives a fundamental commitment to sustainable growth across the Community, to improvements in standard of living and the quality of life of the peoples of the Community, to major work on environmental safeguards and social policy safeguards and safeguards for people who are employed. It has a whole range of fundamental commitments which will be of major benefit. DIMBLEBY: All these things you love and yet you're letting the Danes four million..two million of them say well because we're not happy with it we the great British Labour Party is prepared to say we don't want to have it discussed in Parliament. CUNNINGHAM: That's not fair, you're saying we are letting the Danes, the Danes have the opportunity the same as every other country to express an opinion on the Maastricht Treaty. They chose to do it
through a referendum which their Constitution provides for and it was rejected, now that wasn't our decision. DIMBLEBY: You said in passing just now that you're in favour of the single currency still. You are unwavering given the conditions which the Labour Party has set out before, unalterably in favour of a single currency which means inevitably that you are in favour of the ERM which is the mechanism by which the nations of Europe would reach a single currency. CUNNINGHAM: We reiterated this week our commitment to manage exchange rates. I don't believe that the pound can survive, that we can have a strong economy on our own outside the important developments which are inevitably going to take place with the support of our European partners. Of course we've put down our qualifications about the essential need for economic convergence but you know there are some myths around about the Exchange Rate Mechanism and some of them are being repeated by people who are interviewed in your programme. Interest rates were at fifteen per cent before the pound went into the ERM two years ago in October, the economy was already in the deepest recession we've seen for sixty years so these claims that the Exchange Rate Mechanism caused the recession or caused high interest rates frankly fly in the face of the facts. DIMBLEBY: Well the architect of the view that you say flies in the face of the facts in your own Party is, he said in the film,
was of course Bryan Gould. Now he said that Britain went into the Exchange Rate Mechanism at an over valued level, an "unsustainable rate" he's called it and he says Labour would have been well advised to say so, what's your retort to him on that point? CUNNINGHAM: We've made it clear and John Smith made it clear some weeks ago that the solution to that problem was a general realignment of currencies within the Exchange Rate Mechanism. What emerged tragically and astonishingly in the debate in the House of Commons this week was that John Major and his Chancellor flatly rejected any consideration of that option - it was a disastrous error on their part. DIMBLEBY: You say that the Labour Party made this all so clear. September the eleventh, Gordon Brown, Shadow Chancellor now, let me report what he said - "Our policy is not one of devaluation, nor is it one of revaluation or realignment". CUNNINGHAM: John Smith and Gordon have made it clear again and again that a managed realignment of all the currencies in the Exchange Rate Mechanism offered a way out of the difficulties we faced. DIMBLEBY: Forgive me on this Jack. One of the things - just let me carry on.... CUNNINGHAM: Well, it's no good saying forgive me. I'm trying to answer the question and if you want to ask another one you can do so in a moment or two. What Gordon's ruling out, and what we've always ruled out, is changes in the parity of Sterling alone. We didn't want that to happen, we didn't believe it would solve the problems. DIMBLEBY: But I'm sorry. Gordon Brown wasn't saying that. He went on to say "One of the things the Germans may wish to propose". This is the eleventh of September, only a few days before day zero. "One of the few things the Germans may wish to propose is whether a realignment of the currencies will bring interest rates down, there's no guarantee that that would happen", says Gordon Brown, and - hang on - "it is not our policy". CUNNINGHAM: It was an obvious way to deal with the problem which the Conservatives rejected. Gordon was quite right to say there was no guarantee that such a managed change within the Exchange Rate Mechanism... DIMBLEBY: And it was not our policy? CUNNINGHAM: ...would bring interest rates down. DIMBLEBY: And it was not our policy? Was he right to say that? CUNNINGHAM: It was an obvious option which was available to John Major and Norman Lamont. They rejected it. They said one week that there would be no change in the parity of Sterling, that Sterling wouldn't leave the Exchange Rate Mechanism, they ruled out that option. Sterling is out of the Exchange Rate Mechanism, in free-fall for a few days, and there has been a significant devaluation. DIMBLEBY: Okay. Let me ask you, from what you've said is that those in your Party who you heard talking in the film, who you don't, whose views you don't greatly care for, are not getting a lot of comfort from what you are saying are they? You're still going to go down the ERM single currency route, you still want to have Maastricht. You're saying to them "lump it". CUNNINGHAM: The National Executive's made its position clear, so has the Shadow Cabinet. People are bound, as I have always been in the ten years I've been in the Shadow Cabinet, by collective responsibility. There have been occasions when I would not have been recognised or described as wholly in favour of some of the policy decisions that were taken, but I made my position clear. I accepted that the collective responsibility which not only has to operate of course in Shadow Cabinets, but would inevitably have to take effect in Government too. Now, this week in Blackpool, Conference will debate these issues. I hope it endorses the decisions of the Executive and of the Shadow Cabinet. We shall have to wait and see. But if it does, as I believe it will, then there's no avoiding the consequences of that for the policy position of the Party and those who will be bound by it. DIMBLEBY: So if Bryan Gould wants to say again things like "that those who've supported the position of the Sterling in the ERM at two point nine five, owe a massive apology to those who lost their jobs, lost their homes and lost their businesses" he'll have to say that outside the Shadow Cabinet from now on? CUNNINGHAM: Well, Bryan's position is a matter for him. I don't want to see anyone outside the Shadow Cabinet. I don't want to see anyone resign from the Shadow Cabinet .... DIMBLEBY: So long as he toes the line. CUNNINGHAM: ...over these issues. Well, that is what being part of a team is about isn't it? That's what collective responsibility is being about. I'd make two further points. It's a curious view of politics, particularly the politics of the Labour Party, that we should always expect or anticipate complete unanimity on every major policy issue. I think that's a rather bizarre approach to the whole idea of democratic politics. DIMBLEBY: ...I don't think anyone's had any doubts about that. CUNNINGHAM: But secondly, secondly, if people want to be part of a collective team, then they have to accept that majority decisions prevail. DIMBLEBY: And that they put up or shut up? CUNNINGHAM: Indeed. DIMBLEBY: Now, given that the back-benchers have rather strong views, if our polls reflect - it's a proper NOP poll - reflects attitudes in the Party, are you, if, as you hope, it comes to the House - and as the Prime Minister's indicated it will come to the House - are you going to let them speak their minds freely and vote freely? Would that be your own view? CUNNINGHAM: That decision hasn't been taken. The last time the Bill came to the House for its Second Reading, as I've already said, we decided to abstain. I believe that was the right decision then. We certainly couldn't endorse a Bill in support of a Treaty which had two major and fundamental defects. The lack of our commitment - or the British Government's commitment, the Tories' Commitment - to the Social Chapter and to the developments towards a single currency. I don't see any argument now for changing our position. DIMBLEBY: That's interesting. You'd still go for the same position, but given that you've got - I'm right last time - something like sixty back-benchers who opposed and given these kind of figures, a lot more who would like to oppose - will you be putting a three-line Whip on them. In your mind, would you put a three-line Whip on them in order to secure the Treaty, even though you abstain on it, or would you say go your own way guys, it's a free vote on a major constitutional issue? CUNNINGHAM: I think that decision remains to be taken by the Shadow Cabinet and the Chief Whip... DIMBLEBY: What would your own view be? CUNNINGHAM: My own view is that we should not consort with Thatcherites, right-wing Tories, who really are just completely,
fundamentally anti the European Community, nor do I believe incidentally there'll ever be sufficient of them around in the lobbies when it comes to the crunch to defeat their Government. I think the best example of how spineless most Tory back-benchers are is the Poll Tax, the most controversial issue recently in domestic politics. They were always talking about defeating the Government on the principle of a Poll Tax, on some detail of the Poll Tax. Whenever it came to the crunch they were never there. DIMBLEBY: And you hope that the Labour back-benchers who might want to vote against when it comes to the crunch aren't there voting against either. Anyway, let me go on to the, to the referendum which you said you, at the moment, oppose. You think it'll be debated at Conference. Let me put it to you - that a referendum would do you an awful lot of political good. It would get you out of a hole with your own Party, and it would give you a tremendous favour with the bulk of the electorate who want a referendum. CUNNINGHAM: I don't agree with that analysis at all Jonathan. I think it's a misreading of history. In a referendum the question would be determined by the Conservative Government, the Cabinet would unite behind that, all the finance, all tax-payers money to send leaflets to every one of us in our own homes, would be in the control of the Government. Labour may well be seriously divided in the course of a referendum campaign and, what's more, think of a referendum campaign going on perhaps for three, four, five or six months. The perfect smokescreen for the Tories in the middle of the worst crisis in the British economy people can remember for fifty or sixty years. I don't want to let the Tories off the hook and spend my time campaigning in a referendum when it's the state of the British economy, the unemployment we see, the balance of payments deficit, the massive public expenditure cuts which are coming this Autumn - those are the matters I want to see at the top of the agenda for the Labour Party in the coming months. DIMBLEBY: Now, that was a true political answer. But implicit in it is this money that the Tories have spent, and the Government spent, and the establishment have spent and all of that, and you think the British people are too stupid to see through the propaganda of a Government? CUNNINGHAM: No, I don't think the British people are stupid .... DIMBLEBY: Well, let them have a say then... CUNNINGHAM: I think that the proper way to make these decisions is in the House of Commons. I'm not myself committed to the idea of deciding things by a referendum. We had a referendum on the fundamental question of whether Britain should joint the Community or not. I think that decision has been made. Part of the problem we face now - and this is true of Labour but certainly true of the Tories - is we've still got people around who've never accepted that decision of the people; that Britain should be in the European Community. DIMBLEBY: Has the Shadow Cabinet closed the door finally against a referendum or is it still on the table? CUNNINGHAM: The Shadow Cabinet's made its decision, the National Executive Committee has made its decision - this week, I believe Conference will make its decision, and I expect that to be the end of the matter. DIMBLEBY: Jack Cunningham, we'll see. Thank you. CUNNINGHAM: Thank you.