................................................................................ ON THE RECORD JACK CUNNINGHAM INTERVIEW ONE RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 2.5.93 ................................................................................ JONATHAN DIMBLEBY: The British government is evidently extremely cautious about the Athens deal and making no comment until after the meeting this evening between the Secretary of State, Warren Christopher and the Prime Minister but with us now from Newcastle is the Shadow Foreign Secretary, Jack Cunningham. Mr Cunningham, you've just heard this conversation, how optimistic are you about the prospects of the deal holding? JACK CUNNINGHAM MP: It is first of all, good news and I warmly congratulate David Owen on his dogged persistence in working for all three parties to sign the peace plan. What we now need is a comprehensive and enduring ceasefire and I believe Mr Nahas is right to be cautious about that, to be guarded about it, I believe the United Nations Security Council should still meet. I think the blockade of Serbia should continue and I think an ultimatum about air power should be issued to ensure that the peace plan is buttressed by a comprehensive ceasefire and in those circumstances the United Nations, perhaps using NATO, can put troops in on the ground to enforce it... sorry to police it and ensure that the area is demilitarised. DIMBLEBY: Mr Cunningham, one of the things that I heard David Owen saying in that press conference that we showed a little bit earlier was almost pleaing for not talking about force now, this was a time to talk about peace not to keep up the prospect of military options. CUNNINGHAM: Yes, I heard that too and I must say that I generally support David Owen's analysis, I have done in the past because I think he has by far the best understanding and analysis, grasp of the circumstances on the ground but we have a lot of experience now of ceasefires being agreed and falling apart. We have a lot of experience of the Bosnian Serb leadership in particular apparently agreement to something and then nothing happening or the situation deteriorating. So from where we look now, I think it's the wrong time to say that we can relax pressure either on Serbia or the Bosnian Serbs. DIMBLEBY: We'll come back to that later but if it appears to hold, if the Bosnian Serb parliament endorses, there is an enormous policing operation that begins by the United Nations forces which includes British troops. What is the Labour Party's view about how swiftly now we should be preparing to get to those troops in there? CUNNINGHAM: As quickly as possible, consistent with the recognition that we have an enduring ceasefire, is the answer to that Jonathan. I don't think that we're likely to see widespread deployment of troops under United Nations control if fighting is still going on. DIMBLEBY: What constitutes an enduring peace ceasefire? I mean ... CUNNINGHAM: Well I think the military people and the UN people on the ground are the best people and best placed to reach a judgement about that. I think it's very difficult sitting in a television studio... DIMBLEBY: Absolutely. CUNNINGHAM: ... to answer that question. DIMBLEBY: Now just on your point then of the ultimatum which you would keep running on the two track system. What is your ultimatum and when does it come into force if you were in control? CUNNINGHAM: My request and the statement by John Smith is that the United Nations Security Council should issue the ultimatum and clearly time should be given to ensure that they are complying with it and upholding the provisions of the peace plan and the ceasefire. These are not judgements for us to make, these are judgements for, first of all, the Security Council and the United Nations commanders on the ground to give evidence in support of or otherwise. And then I would like to see the widespread involvement of UN controlled troops probably through NATO to police the peace plan to see demilitarisation taking place. To see that people are safe and that the whole thing is going to endure. DIMBLEBY: Jack Cunningham, thank you. I hope to come back to you later in the programme to discuss what might have to happen if the ceasefire breaks down - the military option. Thank you. ...oooOooo... ................................................................................ ON THE RECORD JACK CUNNINGHAM INTERVIEW TWO RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 2.5.93 ................................................................................ JONATHAN DIMBLEBY: Mr Cunningham, you've been listening to what Dr Owen said and very forcibly at the end saying the bombers are behind the curve, stop talking that kind of stuff. What's your...do you sense that he is a man who knows that we in fact going to get peace because of the enormous pressures that are being brought to bear now on the Bosnian Serbs? JACK CUNNINGHAM MP: I concede straight away that he's much closer to the deal than anyone else and has a much greater understanding, as I said earlier in my comments but, you know, I'm not talking about bombing, I was talking about some international agreement in the Security Council about a ultimatum on air strikes. I don't think there's ever been any case for bombing happening immediately or for it to be widespread and continuous but I think the threat of military action endorsed by the Security Council has had an impact on the circumstances together with the isolation, the economic isolation of Serbia and I don't think this is the appropriate moment to remove that potential threat. DIMBLEBY: So you would you like John Major and Warren Christopher meeting this evening to come out saying that they reserve whatever options they've agreed although you'd be opposed to, for instance, arming the Muslims, which doesn't seem to be at the moment on the agenda obviously, in any case. But you would want them to come out very clearly saying that they as leading figures in the Security Council keep the military option open. CUNNINGHAM: Yes, I would agree with that, until such time as we're satisfied that the peace plan is holding, that a ceasefire is enduring and that it is safe to put the large number of troops that David Owen and Professor Taylor have been talking about on the ground in a peacekeeping role. Remember to put troops in there, they will be going in prepared and equipped for a peace supervision role not for a combat role and I don't think we could put large numbers of troops in if there was any feeling that the peace plan was going to fall apart or that the ceasefire was not going to endure. I don't mean odd little sporadic outbursts, they're inevitable I think in the circumstances but we've got to be satisfied that the war is over before we can move to that face and the peace plan envisages that, as David Owen was saying by giving a forty five day period. DIMBLEBY: Well having heard David Owen being very bullish, certainly by his own standards, knowing what he's experienced over the last eight months. Do you incline to confidence that this really might be the end of the matter? CUNNINGHAM: Yes, I very much hope so. David Owen is entitled to be bullish because he has spent months trying to give people the confidence to do what they have done. To come an agreement with each other and he has succeeded and he deserves the applause of the international community for that and obviously he wants to minimise the threat of conflict breaking out again or of some of the politicians behind the leaders who've signed the peace plan, destablising their leadership either for their own ends or because they feel that threats of military action still exist. So I understand his position very well but he knows, I think, and indeed he acknowledged that it was a combination of factors, the blockade - the threatened blockade of Serbia, the threat of military action from the Security Council which has finally brought people to their senses. I just think those threats should not as of now be removed. DIMBLEBY: Jack Cunningham, thank you very much. ...oooOooo...