NB: THIS TRANSCRIPT WAS TYPED FROM A TRANSCRIPTION UNIT RECORDING AND NOT COPIED FROM AN ORIGINAL SCRIPT: BECAUSE OF THE POSSIBILITY OF MIS-HEARING AND THE DIFFICULTY, IN SOME CASES, OF IDENTIFYNG INDIVIDUAL SPEAKERS, THE BBC CANNOT VOUCH FOR ITS ACCURACY. ............................................................................... ON THE RECORD PADDY ASHDOWN INTERVIEW RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION: BBC-1 DATE: 01.11.92 ............................................................................... JONATHAN DIMBLEBY: Paddy Ashdown, let's get it clear. You intend to recommend to your Party that on Wednesday night it should vote to support the Government in this motion? PADDY ASHDOWN, MP: I intend to recommend to my colleagues and, so far as I can tell, all of them will agree with it - that we intend to vote in favour of Britain's future in Europe. The Government's future is not at issue in this. Britain's future in Europe is. I do not intend to indulge in the kind of disreputable, tawdry decei in by asking people to vote for something last April, which I now vote against in October. DIMBLEBY: And that means that the wording, as it stands, despite its anodyne quality, suits your purpose - it's enough for you? ASHDOWN: Well, I think we can claim a victory in this. We have forced Mr. Major to face up to the issue and the last sentence in the wording asks the House of Commons to do exactly what I asked Mr. Major to to (I've asked him for three or four months) - stop hiding behind the skirts of the Danes, stop dodging away from his Backbenchers, stop this uncertainty that is doing so much damage to Britain's prospects of recovery. I suggested that wording to the Prime Minister; he's put it in. If he stands up to that I'll support him. DIMBLEBY: You say if he stands up to that. Can anything between now and the Division Lobbies on Wednesday evening change your mind and bring about a position where you would NOT support John Major? ASHDOWN: Jonathan, you should never put, never under-estimate this Government's capacity to muck things up. If there is a smell of confidence in the Government about this, if there is any chance whatsoever of bringing the Government down on Wednesday - because they make the vote by itself an issue of confidence - of course we shall vote this terrible Government down, because in doing so I know that we would bring about a General Election which would get a Government which was more constructive towards Europe than this one is. But that is not going to happen - you know it's not going to happen and it is a deceipt of the Labour Party to pretend that it is. Because what would happen under those circumstances is that the Government would put down a vote of no confidence, a vote of confidence on Thursday - they would win that, and the consequence would be that we would end up in the worst of all possible worlds. Directly as a result of the Labour's unprincipled U-turn in this, we'd end up on Friday morning with no General Election and no future for Britain in Europe either. DIMBLEBY: But if the Whips, as it is alleged they are and, as we heard a couple of the Tory Backbenchers there saying, turn this into a vote of confidence into the Government, according to John Major himself. Ian Taylor was talking about a vote of confidence. If it is a vote of confidence in John Major, and is seen to be that by those waverers who would, with you, determine the outcome, what happens then? ASHDOWN: Jonathan, let me see if I can step back. What is the role of an Opposition Party, any Party? It is to put the interests of the nation before the Westminster game. So let us judge that decision according to the interests of the nation. Would the condition of Britain be improved if John Major was replaced by Kenneth Clarke or anybody else, and we had a Tory Government, the answer to that is "No". Would the position of Britain be damaged if Britain didn't have a future IN Europe and was isolated outside it, the answer to that is "Yes". So the question is whether or not we can get a General Election out of Wednesday's vote. If we can, of course we will vote to bring the Government down. But who is the Leader of a Conservative Government is to my mind utterly, utterly irrelevant, and I'm certainly not prepared to put that above Britain's long-term future in Europe. DIMBLEBY: Are you saying that if what was alleged to have been said by people close to John Major on that aeroplane from Egypt, that there would be a General Election if the Prime Minister went down on this - if they were still sticking to that position, then you would be voting against. ASHDOWN: Unquestionably, and this is where the deceipt of the Labour Party lies. I mean, let's leave aside for one moment that Jack Cunningham, the Labour Party's Foreign Affairs spokesman, a month ago was recommending to the French that they should vote in favour of Maastricht and will now go into the lobbies with his Party next Wednesday voting against it. Let's leave aside the dishonesty involved in that. Let us just concentrate on this single fact. That they know and we know that turkeys do not vote for Christmas. What will be killed on Wednesday is Britain's future in Europe. The Government will then return with a vote of confidence on Thursday, which they will win, and we'll be left with no General Election and no future in Europe. Labour may be prepared to play fast and loose with the future of this Country - I will not. DIMBLEBY: But you're presuming that turkeys don't vote for Christmas in politics. There is a difference between turkeys and politicians. Politicians do sometimes vote for Christmas on their principle. ASHDOWN: Ok. Let's, don't accept my word about it. Let's take Bill Cash's word. He's the person most adamantly opposed to the Government. He made it quite clear that if there's a vote of confidence,
which clearly there would be on Thursday, he'd vote for the Government, so what Labour is doing is involving itself in a dishonesty which I certainly will not support - it is playing the Westminster game - it is actually now about to say that the issue here is that the Maastricht Bill should be delayed for four weeks. Now what happens in those four weeks? The uncertainty about Britain's future in Europe continues; our capacity to recover is diminished; more people lose their jobs - the very people that the Labour Party were campaigning in favour of in Hyde Park Rally three weeks' ago, two weeks' ago, will be the ones who suffer if Britain's future is not, does not lie in Europe. I think it is just about the most tawdry and discreditable act from an Opposition Party that I have seen in recent years, and I intend to be, and my Party intends to be, no part of it. There are times when you stand by your principles, and this is one. DIMBLEBY: What would the Foreign Secretary or the Prime Minister or any other Member of the Cabinet, have to say between now and that Wednesday night for you to change your mind? ASHDOWN: I think if the Government make it clear that if the Bill goes down on Wednesday night there will be a General Election and Mr. Major will go to the Queen, leaving aside the fact that I think it would put the Queen in a very difficult Constitutional position. Leaving aside the Constitutional issues, if the Government make that clear of course we shall vote to remove this Government - I can't wait for it to go. But I know that isn't the case; you know that isn't the case; and what is much more important, the Labour Party, indulging in the deceipt that it is, also knows it isn't the case. DIMBLEBY: So Charles Kennedy, when he says we'll wait and see what they make of it, was suggesting there were a range of subtle alternatives, is wrong on this? This is no longer the position of the Party? ASHDOWN: Charles was speaking before we had consulted amongst colleagues. I now have consulted. They took this view. My Party is unanimous on it, my MPs are absolutely clear that the interests of the nation come first and that means making sure that Britain has a future in Europe. We will vote for this. I've been pressing the Prime Minister for months to face up to his Backbenchers. I've been pressing him for months to stop hiding behind the skirts of the Danes. I've been pressing him for months to clear up this uncertainty that is extending the recession. If now, as a result of our pressure, he has finally found the stomach to do that, of course I'll back him. DIMBLEBY: Does this mean, insofar as it's necessary - you suggest it won't be, it's a three-line Whip for all your MPs. ASHDOWN: We don't have three-line Whips in our Party in that sense, but all my MPs, all the MPs in the Party - I understand how some members of the Party are worried about this, I can understand that, I understand the pressure on them - but at the end of the day we must....... DIMBLEBY: What are they saying to you? ASHDOWN: Well, they're saying that we ought to be voting - very few of them, I mean at the Scottish Conference thirty out of three hundred took the view - but of course I understand. That's very tough. Nothing that is good in politics is ever easy, but there are times when you put the national interest first. There are times when you have - as this Party has, for forty years, sometimes alone on this issue - stood by its principles.
The Labour Party may have changed twice in every decade, their view on Europe, but I don't intend to join them, neither do my colleagues. DIMBLEBY: Are you happy with what might be the headline if the Government wins - "Paddy Ashdown saves John Major's bacon"? ASHDOWN: No, I'm happy with the headline which says "Paddy Ashdown's saved Britain's future in Europe", and I'm delighted with the headline which says "The Labour Party has turned tail again on this issue". I don't believe you can win the trust of the British people by asking them to vote for something in April which you vote against in November. DIMBLEBY: So you tell your MPs in the depths of a recession, when the Government is promising painful spending cuts, don't worry (in seats where Labour's breathing down your neck), don't worry chaps - you may lose your seat but you'll have saved us for Europe. ASHDOWN: There are times when you have to do the things that are necessary to stand by your principle. This is not the Labour Party, it never has been. But your question of the economy is absolutely right. Unless we now resolve the uncertainty over Britain's future in Europe, we will damage our capacity to get out of this recession and the direct consequence of Labour's move, if they should succeed and I desperately hope for the future of this country, they do not, will be that that recession will continue and more jobs will be lost. I give you this prediction - if there is any possibility that Labour wins on Thursday, on Wednesday, I'll bet you the good Europeans in the Labour Party will turn out not to be there. DIMBLEBY: Do you believe finally and briefly that it is too close to call at the moment? ASHDOWN: Yes, that's why I think the Labour Party's position is SO discreditable. That's why I think that this deceipt that they're perpetrating, that the Government could fall that day, which they know isn't true, is so dishonest, and that's why I believe at the end of it good Europeans - like John Smith did in 1972, but is now ducking now - good Europeans in the Labour Party if there's any possibility of Maastricht falling, will simply not be there. DIMBLEBY: Paddy Ashdown, thank you very much. ...oooOooo...